1 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:02,401 Bonnie Parker lived in Windsboro, 2 00:00:02,401 --> 00:00:05,812 Louisiana. She was sick, and for years, 3 00:00:05,812 --> 00:00:09,794 every Sunday she watched Kenneth and Gloria Copeland on television, 4 00:00:09,794 --> 00:00:14,166 hoping to be healed. The Copelands preached the prosperity gospel, 5 00:00:14,166 --> 00:00:19,599 which teaches that faith and giving bring health and wealth back to the giver. 6 00:00:19,599 --> 00:00:22,730 Bonnie Parker gave. Her daughter, 7 00:00:22,730 --> 00:00:25,691 Christy Beach, later said she donated. 8 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,902 Tens of thousands of dollars, possibly hundreds of thousands. 9 00:00:29,902 --> 00:00:35,844 Her husband, Alvin Parker, said she died believing that she had not given enough 10 00:00:35,944 --> 00:00:38,304 to be healed. Around the same time, 11 00:00:38,304 --> 00:00:43,206 a reporter at WFAA in Dallas named Brett Ship obtained flight records 12 00:00:43,206 --> 00:00:47,388 for Copeland's ministry's $20 million jet. 13 00:00:47,388 --> 00:00:49,769 On a trip to a seminar in Australia, 14 00:00:49,769 --> 00:00:52,920 the plane stopped in Maui, in Fiji. 15 00:00:53,709 --> 00:00:58,443 And in Honolulu, for what the Copelands called eating and rest. 16 00:00:58,443 --> 00:01:04,566 The same records showed the jet flying to the La Fonda Hunting Ranch in South Texas. 17 00:01:04,566 --> 00:01:09,130 Bonnie Parker's family asked the ministry for an accounting of what she had given. 18 00:01:09,130 --> 00:01:11,312 They wanted to know where her money went. 19 00:01:11,312 --> 00:01:16,516 Christy Beach told reporters, I just can't comprehend them going on vacation 20 00:01:16,516 --> 00:01:19,619 in a jet that my mom paid for with her life. 21 00:01:19,619 --> 00:01:22,441 The ministry declined to be interviewed and 22 00:01:22,817 --> 00:01:26,860 What it offered instead was a statement from an accounting firm saying 23 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:29,464 its jet travel complied with tax law. 24 00:01:29,464 --> 00:01:34,470 The family asked for an accounting of one woman's donations and got 25 00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:36,732 a firm's opinion about the airplane. 26 00:01:58,417 --> 00:02:00,220 Hello and welcome back to The Overlap. 27 00:02:00,220 --> 00:02:02,864 This is The Overlap. I'm Joshua. 28 00:02:03,364 --> 00:02:07,958 And I'm Will. This episode is about prosperity gospel televangelists. 29 00:02:07,958 --> 00:02:13,303 Chiefly Kenneth Copeland. The Jets donors paid for the mansions. 30 00:02:13,303 --> 00:02:17,076 They pay no they pay no property tax and a federal tax agency that opened 31 00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:20,059 one examination of a church in all of its fiscal for twenty fourteen. 32 00:02:20,559 --> 00:02:22,981 Copeland's history explains a lot about the Plains. 33 00:02:22,981 --> 00:02:26,124 Before he was a broadcaster, he was actually a pilot. 34 00:02:26,124 --> 00:02:29,687 And the man he flew for was Oral Roberts. 35 00:02:29,687 --> 00:02:34,091 Not far from where I live now is Oral Roberts University. 36 00:02:34,091 --> 00:02:40,297 His own organization is legally a church called Eagle Mountain International Church, 37 00:02:40,297 --> 00:02:43,860 and it does business as Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 38 00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:45,942 based in Newark, Texas, near Fort Worth. 39 00:02:46,442 --> 00:02:49,347 Keep that legal status in mind because nearly every protection we discuss 40 00:02:49,347 --> 00:02:52,962 in this episode attaches to the word quote church. 41 00:02:52,962 --> 00:02:55,957 And this particular church apparently owns an airport. 42 00:02:55,957 --> 00:02:58,310 It's called Kenneth Copeland Airport in Newark. 43 00:02:58,310 --> 00:03:01,776 Reporting from twenty twenty five says Copeland owns five aircraft. 44 00:03:02,276 --> 00:03:05,907 Plane from the Cold Open is a Cessna Citation X. 45 00:03:05,907 --> 00:03:10,089 In 2005, Copeland got his donors to pay for it. 46 00:03:10,089 --> 00:03:15,171 At the time, it was the fastest private jet in the world, 47 00:03:15,171 --> 00:03:18,093 and it cost about $20 million. 48 00:03:18,093 --> 00:03:23,195 Trinity Foundation, a watchdog group that tracks televangelist finances, 49 00:03:23,195 --> 00:03:28,067 says he uses it regularly to fly to his resort home in Steamboat Springs, 50 00:03:28,067 --> 00:03:29,067 Colorado. 51 00:03:29,107 --> 00:03:33,068 Praise Jesus. The paperwork around that plane has its own wrinkle. 52 00:03:33,068 --> 00:03:36,869 In July 2005, the same year the Citation 10 was bought, 53 00:03:36,869 --> 00:03:39,910 a for-profit company called AIR Inc., 54 00:03:39,910 --> 00:03:42,431 clever name, was created in Newark, 55 00:03:42,431 --> 00:03:45,471 Texas. Its directors were Gasou, 56 00:03:45,471 --> 00:03:47,562 Kenneth Copeland, and Charles G. 57 00:03:47,562 --> 00:03:51,713 Hyde. The Senate Finance Committee staff named Air Inc., 58 00:03:51,713 --> 00:03:54,654 AIR Inc. in its review of the ministry. 59 00:03:54,654 --> 00:03:58,125 Whatever payments moved between the church and that company were never disclosed. 60 00:03:58,931 --> 00:04:00,554 So what we can say is limited to this, 61 00:04:00,554 --> 00:04:04,395 a church that owns jets and an airport operates alongside a 62 00:04:04,395 --> 00:04:07,085 for profit aviation company with the founder on its board, 63 00:04:07,085 --> 00:04:09,900 and nobody outside has seen the books of either one. 64 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:16,065 Then in 2019, Inside Edition sent Lisa Guerrero to ask Copeland about 65 00:04:16,065 --> 00:04:21,119 the jets on camera. He gave her two lines that traveled a very long way. 66 00:04:21,119 --> 00:04:26,083 He described commercial airliners as a tube full of demons. 67 00:04:26,083 --> 00:04:31,448 And when she pressed on him specifically about the money, 68 00:04:31,448 --> 00:04:33,990 he said, I'm a very wealthy man. 69 00:04:34,490 --> 00:04:39,044 Just gets better and better. The program also reported at least 143 flights 70 00:04:39,044 --> 00:04:40,505 to the Colorado vacation home. 71 00:04:40,505 --> 00:04:42,686 I want to be careful with that number. 72 00:04:42,686 --> 00:04:46,190 Much of the jet tracking material in this story comes from Trinity Foundation, 73 00:04:46,190 --> 00:04:49,903 which reads public flight data and draws conclusions about where a plane went 74 00:04:49,903 --> 00:04:53,797 and why. Trinity is an advocacy watchdog and it worked alongside 75 00:04:53,797 --> 00:04:55,478 the Senate committee for six years. 76 00:04:55,478 --> 00:04:58,161 Aviation blogs that repeat these figures, 77 00:04:58,161 --> 00:05:01,964 like Arrow Corner and Jetly, mostly repackage earlier reporting. 78 00:05:02,191 --> 00:05:06,795 So 143 flights and the purpose of any single trip rests on a watchdog's reading 79 00:05:06,795 --> 00:05:08,926 of flight data rather than the ministry's own logs. 80 00:05:08,926 --> 00:05:10,838 Because those aren't available. 81 00:05:10,838 --> 00:05:13,700 Where we can, we'll cite the original reporting, 82 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:16,082 meaning WFAA and the Senate staff report. 83 00:05:16,082 --> 00:05:19,745 The ministry has its own account of its flying and it deserves a full hearing. 84 00:05:19,745 --> 00:05:23,348 It says the planes are used for ministry work about 90% of the time. 85 00:05:23,348 --> 00:05:27,311 For the period from November 2006 to November 2007, 86 00:05:27,311 --> 00:05:30,874 it says its board approved personal use of the aircraft 10% of the time. 87 00:05:32,303 --> 00:05:33,343 And when you have five aircraft, 88 00:05:33,343 --> 00:05:36,226 ten percent of the time can be a lot of ~ lot of time in the air. 89 00:05:35,969 --> 00:05:36,969 Lot of flight hours. 90 00:05:37,426 --> 00:05:41,149 Yeah, it says personal trips are charged and that an accounting firm reviewed 91 00:05:41,149 --> 00:05:43,390 the jet travel and found it compliant with tax law. 92 00:05:43,390 --> 00:05:46,232 If those charges are real and the family paid them, 93 00:05:46,232 --> 00:05:48,053 that that changes the legal picture. 94 00:05:48,053 --> 00:05:51,376 A steamboat springs trip the Copeland's paid for at a proper rate 95 00:05:51,376 --> 00:05:53,857 is a different thing from a trip that donors cover. 96 00:05:53,857 --> 00:05:57,239 The trouble is that the repayments have never been publicly verified. 97 00:05:57,239 --> 00:05:59,821 Nobody outside the ministry has seen the invoices, 98 00:05:59,821 --> 00:06:00,972 the rates, or the checks. 99 00:06:01,678 --> 00:06:05,052 What the public has is a percentage the ministry chose to release and 100 00:06:05,052 --> 00:06:06,398 a summary from a firm it hired. 101 00:06:06,898 --> 00:06:09,430 And take the ministry's number at face value for just a second, 102 00:06:09,430 --> 00:06:15,544 right? Even ten percent of the flying on a twenty million dollar jet is 103 00:06:15,544 --> 00:06:19,066 a lot of personal travel on an aircraft that donors paid for. 104 00:06:19,066 --> 00:06:24,009 And the board that approved it is the board of Copeland's own church. 105 00:06:24,509 --> 00:06:25,980 No conflict there that I can tell. 106 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:29,243 The newest addition to the fleet came from Hollywood. 107 00:06:29,243 --> 00:06:34,128 The church's Gulf Stream 5, tail number N1967J, 108 00:06:34,128 --> 00:06:37,731 was sold to Eagle Mountain International Church by Tyler Perry. 109 00:06:37,731 --> 00:06:42,436 Sources disagree on whether the sale happened in 2017 or 2018. 110 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:46,299 Copeland said Perry made the price so cheap for me I couldn't help but buy it. 111 00:06:46,299 --> 00:06:49,112 What the church actually paid was never disclosed. 112 00:06:49,612 --> 00:06:51,683 In Medea and Copeland's defense, 113 00:06:51,683 --> 00:06:57,397 all of this rests on time. He says the Jets let him cover more ground 114 00:06:57,397 --> 00:07:03,331 in a ministry he claims was brought that's brought 122 million people to Christ. 115 00:07:03,331 --> 00:07:09,596 If you accept that premise that every hour saved means more people are reached, 116 00:07:09,596 --> 00:07:11,277 a faster plane, 117 00:07:10,521 --> 00:07:11,521 Or saved. 118 00:07:12,038 --> 00:07:16,000 right, or saved, becomes a ministry expense. 119 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,422 Meanwhile, estimates of his 120 00:07:18,554 --> 00:07:21,849 Personal net worth have been reported at about seven hundred 121 00:07:21,849 --> 00:07:23,321 and fifty million dollars. 122 00:07:23,821 --> 00:07:28,587 Jesus has been generous. And the $122 million figure that we talked about there 123 00:07:28,587 --> 00:07:32,091 for the people that have been brought to Christ comes from Copeland himself. 124 00:07:32,091 --> 00:07:34,785 I'm sure he's been counting. There's no way to check it, 125 00:07:34,785 --> 00:07:36,878 and for the same reason there's no way to check the ninety percent. 126 00:07:36,878 --> 00:07:39,501 Both numbers come from inside an organization that publishes nothing 127 00:07:39,501 --> 00:07:42,655 it doesn't want to, despite the fact that the truth will set you free. 128 00:07:43,155 --> 00:07:47,277 In two thousand seven, the same year WFAA published the flight records, 129 00:07:47,277 --> 00:07:49,917 Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, 130 00:07:49,917 --> 00:07:51,898 a Republican you might have seen, 131 00:07:51,898 --> 00:07:57,660 ~ regularly refused to uphold decorum rules for the FBI director. 132 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:03,353 It said in a Senate Finance Committee that he opened investigation into 133 00:08:03,353 --> 00:08:05,563 six television ministries Kenneth Copeland, 134 00:08:05,563 --> 00:08:09,645 Benny Hinn, Creeflow Dollar, Eddie Long, 135 00:08:09,645 --> 00:08:12,626 Joyce Meyer, and Paula White. 136 00:08:13,126 --> 00:08:16,567 There's a who's who for you. ~ what he asked for, 137 00:08:16,567 --> 00:08:19,668 what Senator Director Grassley asked for was ordinary. 138 00:08:19,668 --> 00:08:22,249 Records on jets, homes, and vehicles, 139 00:08:22,249 --> 00:08:25,200 plus records of any repayments the leaders had made for personal use 140 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,800 of the ministry property. That last item goes straight at the Copeland claim 141 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,172 we just heard. If personal flights were being charged back, 142 00:08:31,172 --> 00:08:33,453 Grassley's request would have produced the paperwork proving it. 143 00:08:33,953 --> 00:08:35,744 The six splits into two groups, 144 00:08:35,744 --> 00:08:40,086 Joyce Meyer Ministries and Benny Hinn Ministries cooperated. 145 00:08:40,086 --> 00:08:43,986 They handed over material, they changed how they set compensation 146 00:08:44,207 --> 00:08:46,178 and how they governed their organizations. 147 00:08:46,178 --> 00:08:52,351 So the Senate scrutiny produced real reform at two of the six ministries named 148 00:08:52,351 --> 00:08:53,351 in this episode. 149 00:08:53,521 --> 00:08:55,843 And I think they probably had their own struggles to deal with 150 00:08:55,843 --> 00:08:58,035 at Benny Hinn's ministry. But the 151 00:08:57,561 --> 00:08:58,561 Mm-hmm. 152 00:08:58,035 --> 00:09:00,037 other four, we know, Copeland, 153 00:09:00,037 --> 00:09:03,400 Dollar, Long and White, which sounds like a horrific law firm, 154 00:09:03,469 --> 00:09:04,469 Ha 155 00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:06,082 gave incomplete answers or none at all. 156 00:09:06,582 --> 00:09:08,793 The investigation actually ran for more than three years. 157 00:09:08,793 --> 00:09:15,515 On January 6th, 2011, Grassley's staff released a 61 page final review. 158 00:09:15,515 --> 00:09:19,546 A lot of what they learned about the Copeland operation came from outside 159 00:09:19,546 --> 00:09:23,137 the ministry, including from former Copeland Ministries employees. 160 00:09:23,137 --> 00:09:27,208 Those former employees told Senate staff that they had been warned that 161 00:09:27,208 --> 00:09:32,150 if they talked, quote, God will blight our finances. 162 00:09:32,650 --> 00:09:35,152 So if if you're saying if you're threatening for God to do it, 163 00:09:35,152 --> 00:09:36,372 does that make it not your fault? 164 00:09:36,372 --> 00:09:40,955 Is that how that works? Is that like a ~ enforce majeure kind of thing? 165 00:09:41,796 --> 00:09:44,878 Act of God? ~ anyway, sorry, just 166 00:09:43,746 --> 00:09:44,973 I'm not gonna weigh in on that one. 167 00:09:45,558 --> 00:09:48,900 just thinking out loud. For someone who worked at a ministry because they believed 168 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:51,832 in it, the warning that warning threatens their livelihood and 169 00:09:51,832 --> 00:09:53,143 the vocabulary of their faith. 170 00:09:53,143 --> 00:09:57,186 Meaning like if your whole identity is wrapped up in that in that ministry, 171 00:09:57,186 --> 00:10:00,178 it's a real threat to say you're gonna be cut off or that God's gonna blight your 172 00:10:00,178 --> 00:10:02,139 finances, meaning you're fired. 173 00:10:02,501 --> 00:10:04,343 I would say is it probably the subtext there. 174 00:10:04,343 --> 00:10:07,977 And in this whole story, no investigator had the power to go around 175 00:10:07,977 --> 00:10:09,629 it by compelling the records directly. 176 00:10:10,129 --> 00:10:11,870 Even with the doors mostly shut, 177 00:10:11,870 --> 00:10:17,202 staff found some numbers. Fifteen Copeland family members were 178 00:10:17,202 --> 00:10:23,265 on the ministry payroll. That drew in about $1.5 million in salary just between 179 00:10:23,265 --> 00:10:28,757 the 15 members of his family. Kenneth and Gloria's combined salaries exceeded 180 00:10:28,757 --> 00:10:32,689 $600,000. And on top of those salaries, 181 00:10:32,689 --> 00:10:35,600 the church paid their living and operating expenses. 182 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,074 And if my math is n is tracking here, 183 00:10:38,074 --> 00:10:40,518 you divide one point five million by fifteen people, 184 00:10:40,518 --> 00:10:43,353 and the average comes to a hundred thousand dollars for each family member 185 00:10:43,353 --> 00:10:47,060 on the payroll. Whatever else Kenneth Cole Copeland Ministries is, 186 00:10:47,060 --> 00:10:48,833 it's also the Copeland's family employer. 187 00:10:50,053 --> 00:10:51,695 Then of course there's the land. 188 00:10:51,695 --> 00:10:55,229 The staff review found that John Copeland, 189 00:10:55,229 --> 00:10:58,963 who appeared alongside Kenneth and Gloria in the WFAA reporting, 190 00:10:58,963 --> 00:11:04,830 bought three properties the church owned after an oil and gas field 191 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:09,636 was found on top of them. The price he paid was seventy three thousand dollars. 192 00:11:10,136 --> 00:11:12,389 The order of events though is what stands out here. 193 00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:14,972 Donated money buys land for the church, 194 00:11:14,972 --> 00:11:17,255 and later an oil and gas field turns up under it. 195 00:11:17,255 --> 00:11:21,520 After the discovery, the land leaves the church for seventy three thousand 196 00:11:21,821 --> 00:11:25,346 and goes to a copland. Nobody outside has reported what that oil 197 00:11:25,346 --> 00:11:27,989 and gas later produced because the church has no obligation to say. 198 00:11:28,489 --> 00:11:31,060 The other holdouts had their own aircraft arrangements. 199 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:36,722 Creeflo Dahler was CEO of a for-profit company called World Airs, 200 00:11:36,722 --> 00:11:40,524 Inc., and his wife Taffy Dahler was its secretary. 201 00:11:40,524 --> 00:11:45,846 World Airs owns the Gulf Stream the Dollars usually fly on. 202 00:11:45,846 --> 00:11:50,328 It also sold another Gulf Stream to Kenneth Copeland. 203 00:11:50,328 --> 00:11:52,839 So two of the ministries under Senate 204 00:11:52,487 --> 00:11:53,487 Hmm. 205 00:11:52,839 --> 00:11:56,290 investigation were trading airplanes with each other. 206 00:11:56,804 --> 00:12:00,537 Through a for-profit company run by one of the pastors entirely. 207 00:12:00,537 --> 00:12:04,399 The Senate could definitely see that the sale happened, 208 00:12:04,399 --> 00:12:09,034 but it couldn't see the price and who on either side came out ahead. 209 00:12:09,534 --> 00:12:13,436 Eddie Long, the late Bishop of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, 210 00:12:13,436 --> 00:12:16,757 had a company called Long Charter Air LLC. 211 00:12:16,757 --> 00:12:19,218 It was registered at the church's own address, 212 00:12:19,218 --> 00:12:23,840 at least a Grumman Jet to a Long affiliated organization for $30,000 a month. 213 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,981 And if Long Charter Air was were ever dissolved, 214 00:12:27,981 --> 00:12:29,822 its assets would go to Eddie Long personally. 215 00:12:29,822 --> 00:12:31,983 Run the arithmetic on that one with me. 216 00:12:31,983 --> 00:12:34,984 $30,000 a month is $360,000 a year. 217 00:12:34,984 --> 00:12:37,145 Leaving a religious organization 218 00:12:37,952 --> 00:12:40,965 and landing in the company at the church's address whose assets end up 219 00:12:42,327 --> 00:12:46,442 ~ with the bishop. Every lease payment builds value and something long would 220 00:12:46,442 --> 00:12:47,442 eventually own outright. 221 00:12:47,833 --> 00:12:52,929 Paula White, now Paula White Kane of Without Walls International Church 222 00:12:52,929 --> 00:12:56,543 was the fourth hold out. She also gave complete answers, 223 00:12:56,543 --> 00:13:00,949 incomplete answers when ~ the Senate committee probed her organization. 224 00:13:01,449 --> 00:13:03,131 And the ending was anticlimactic. 225 00:13:03,131 --> 00:13:07,575 The ~ staff said they lacked the time or resources to issue subpoenas, 226 00:13:07,575 --> 00:13:11,349 so no one was penalized. Grassley handed the question of reform 227 00:13:11,349 --> 00:13:14,202 to the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, 228 00:13:14,202 --> 00:13:15,764 which is a private group. 229 00:13:16,264 --> 00:13:23,228 ~ ol Anthony of Trinity Foundation said the EFCA has no teeth. 230 00:13:23,228 --> 00:13:29,932 A private counsel can't compel a document any more than Grassley staff choo chose 231 00:13:29,932 --> 00:13:33,494 to, right? So in in three years of federal investigation, 232 00:13:33,494 --> 00:13:39,458 what they ended with was that the matter was passed on to an organization with less 233 00:13:39,458 --> 00:13:41,299 power than the Senate. 234 00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:42,970 Here is the fair counterweight, 235 00:13:42,970 --> 00:13:44,321 and we should give it its full weight. 236 00:13:44,321 --> 00:13:48,164 The Senate investigation found no violations of federal tax rules, 237 00:13:48,164 --> 00:13:49,985 given that there was no evidence, 238 00:13:49,985 --> 00:13:51,807 and no clear proof of wrongdoing. 239 00:13:51,807 --> 00:13:54,690 Copeland was never accused of breaking the law. 240 00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:56,421 When we describe how the system works, 241 00:13:56,421 --> 00:13:59,774 we're describing conduct that nobody has shown or proven in a court of 242 00:13:59,774 --> 00:14:00,774 law to be illegal. 243 00:14:01,165 --> 00:14:05,467 And that's very important, especially when your highest paid ~ 244 00:14:05,467 --> 00:14:08,228 co workers are legally married to you, 245 00:14:08,228 --> 00:14:12,010 which keeps you from being compelled to testify against them in court. 246 00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:16,152 And the reason nobody showed it is the same report. 247 00:14:16,152 --> 00:14:19,043 Four ministries declined to hand over their full records, 248 00:14:19,043 --> 00:14:25,396 and the committee decided against subpoenaing those four specific organizations. 249 00:14:25,896 --> 00:14:26,896 An 250 00:14:25,986 --> 00:14:30,530 investigation that can't get the documents can't find any violations in them. 251 00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:34,012 Both facts can be true at the same time. 252 00:14:34,012 --> 00:14:37,556 And the ministries are entitled to the first one. 253 00:14:37,556 --> 00:14:41,559 The reason this fell to a senator in the first place actually goes back 254 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:44,442 to the year I was born, nineteen eighty four. 255 00:14:44,442 --> 00:14:49,096 That year Congress passed the Church Audit Procedures Act, 256 00:14:49,096 --> 00:14:51,578 Section seven hundred six one one of the tax code. 257 00:14:52,380 --> 00:14:55,844 Before the IRS can even open an inquiry into a church, 258 00:14:55,844 --> 00:14:59,167 a senior IRS official has to approve it. 259 00:14:59,167 --> 00:15:03,672 The church gets written notice and the offer of a meeting. 260 00:15:03,672 --> 00:15:06,135 And any examination is pretty limited, 261 00:15:06,135 --> 00:15:09,499 it's it's only to the three most recent tax years. 262 00:15:09,999 --> 00:15:12,580 Let's put that through a year window against the Copeland timeline. 263 00:15:12,580 --> 00:15:15,581 The citation 10 was paid for in 2005. 264 00:15:15,581 --> 00:15:18,702 Grassley's letters went out in 2007. 265 00:15:18,702 --> 00:15:22,953 An IRS examination opened even a couple of years after that could already 266 00:15:22,953 --> 00:15:25,144 be outside the window for the year the plane was bought. 267 00:15:25,144 --> 00:15:28,615 The rules are built so that by the time an inquiry clears the approvals, 268 00:15:28,615 --> 00:15:30,196 the oldest transactions have aged out. 269 00:15:30,696 --> 00:15:35,339 Churches also start with less on file than any other charity because other 270 00:15:35,339 --> 00:15:39,682 tax exempt groups file a public Form 990 every year, 271 00:15:39,682 --> 00:15:41,923 and churches just don't have to. 272 00:15:41,923 --> 00:15:46,567 And the category of church is wider than most people would actually guess. 273 00:15:46,567 --> 00:15:50,269 Daystar Television Network is classified as a church, 274 00:15:50,269 --> 00:15:52,931 so it also does not have to file a Form 990. 275 00:15:53,431 --> 00:15:56,296 Television network with a church's disclosure obs obligations. 276 00:15:56,296 --> 00:15:59,572 Hold on to Daystar 'cause it comes up again when we go get to the Jets. 277 00:16:00,072 --> 00:16:05,199 Then two thousand eight, a court ruling blocked the IRS from auditing Living Word 278 00:16:05,199 --> 00:16:07,923 Christian Center, Mac Hammond's Church in Minnesota. 279 00:16:07,923 --> 00:16:11,037 Trinity Foundation says that after the ruling, 280 00:16:11,037 --> 00:16:13,991 the IRS effectively stopped auditing churches. 281 00:16:14,491 --> 00:16:16,633 And the government's own numbers bear that out as well. 282 00:16:16,633 --> 00:16:19,776 The government accountability office later reported that the IRS opened 283 00:16:19,776 --> 00:16:24,430 two church examinations in fiscal twenty thirteen and one in twenty fourteen. 284 00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:27,813 That one examination covered every church in the country for a full year. 285 00:16:28,313 --> 00:16:31,994 Now, most recent figures are a little higher and still tiny. 286 00:16:31,994 --> 00:16:35,565 Between October 1st, 2020 and September 30th, 287 00:16:35,565 --> 00:16:39,896 2022, the IRS opened 14 church tax examinations, 288 00:16:39,896 --> 00:16:43,577 according to the law firm Wagenmaker and Oberly, 289 00:16:43,577 --> 00:16:49,838 which Trinity actually cites. That works out to about seven investigations per year. 290 00:16:49,838 --> 00:16:52,719 And Trinity also found that in 2023, 291 00:16:52,719 --> 00:16:57,590 no church lost its tax exempt status as a result of an IRS audit. 292 00:16:58,090 --> 00:17:01,362 Wow, that speaks volumes. Part of the explanation is staffing. 293 00:17:01,362 --> 00:17:03,575 Between fiscal twenty ten and fiscal twenty nineteen, 294 00:17:03,575 --> 00:17:07,870 the IRS lost more than twenty-nine thousand six hundred and eighteen full time 295 00:17:07,870 --> 00:17:11,944 positions. An office that has to get their senior sign-off for every church inquiry 296 00:17:11,945 --> 00:17:14,107 while shedding that many people is going to be open to very few. 297 00:17:14,607 --> 00:17:16,308 And when the IRS does find something, 298 00:17:16,308 --> 00:17:18,739 the public never really learns what it was. 299 00:17:18,739 --> 00:17:23,043 Fines from church audits are kept secret under the Privacy Act of 1974. 300 00:17:23,043 --> 00:17:28,117 So for these 14 examinations, the only outcome anyone outside 301 00:17:28,117 --> 00:17:34,612 can actually report is that none of them cost a church its exemption in 2023. 302 00:17:34,612 --> 00:17:37,795 Any penalty, any repayment, any fighting, 303 00:17:37,795 --> 00:17:39,476 all of that stays sealed. 304 00:17:39,976 --> 00:17:42,047 Now I do want to push back on the version of this story where the 305 00:17:42,047 --> 00:17:46,424 IRS has no options. A federal appeals court ruled that the Church Audit Procedures 306 00:17:46,424 --> 00:17:49,138 Act doesn't protect church records held by a bank. 307 00:17:49,138 --> 00:17:52,913 The IRS can demand those records directly from the bank without going through 308 00:17:52,913 --> 00:17:54,385 the church's notice and meeting process. 309 00:17:54,885 --> 00:17:56,836 Now that shifts some of the responsibility. 310 00:17:56,836 --> 00:17:59,916 The 1984 law slows the IRS down, 311 00:17:59,916 --> 00:18:02,837 and the staffing cuts slow it down a little more. 312 00:18:02,837 --> 00:18:08,959 But the agency has a particular path to church bank records that 313 00:18:08,959 --> 00:18:10,959 the courts have consistently upheld. 314 00:18:10,959 --> 00:18:15,481 The low audit counts come partly from the law and partly from the choices that 315 00:18:15,481 --> 00:18:19,392 IRS has made about where to spend the staff that it has actually left. 316 00:18:19,892 --> 00:18:21,222 Which brings us to November fifth, 317 00:18:21,222 --> 00:18:24,483 twenty twenty two. Copeland flew the church's Gulf Stream, 318 00:18:24,483 --> 00:18:27,484 same tail number as before, ~ which we mentioned, 319 00:18:27,484 --> 00:18:30,805 that came from Tyler Perry from Fort Worth Alliance Airport 320 00:18:30,805 --> 00:18:33,236 to Palm Beach International. So again, 321 00:18:33,236 --> 00:18:37,647 he's flying formerly Tyler Perry's Gulf Stream from Fort Worth to Palm Beach. 322 00:18:37,647 --> 00:18:40,868 The occasion was a Trump rally promoting Mehmet Oz, 323 00:18:40,868 --> 00:18:42,688 who was running for the Senate in Pennsylvania. 324 00:18:42,688 --> 00:18:45,929 Then Mr. Copeland flew back to Texas. 325 00:18:46,429 --> 00:18:51,051 Pete Evans at the Trinity Foundation asked just two questions about that trip. 326 00:18:51,051 --> 00:18:53,892 Did the flight have any ministry purpose? 327 00:18:53,892 --> 00:18:58,214 And was the church actually compensated for it? 328 00:18:58,214 --> 00:19:02,716 Churches are barred from campaigning for candidates under the Johnson Amendment. 329 00:19:02,716 --> 00:19:06,128 And Trinity says the IRS has, quote, 330 00:19:06,128 --> 00:19:09,450 virtually ignored the Johnson Amendment for churches. 331 00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:14,895 So you have a church owned jet flying a church founder to a campaign rally 332 00:19:15,015 --> 00:19:18,929 for a Senate candidate, and the two questions that would settle anything whether 333 00:19:18,929 --> 00:19:22,893 anything improper happened are the same two questions Senator Grassley asked 334 00:19:22,893 --> 00:19:25,806 in two thousand seven personal use and repayment. 335 00:19:25,806 --> 00:19:29,099 Fifteen years later they're still being asked by a watchdog with no power 336 00:19:29,099 --> 00:19:30,099 to get an answer. 337 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,481 And the twenty twenty two flight is recent enough to fall inside 338 00:19:33,481 --> 00:19:38,532 the three year window, or at least it was at the tax filing window 339 00:19:38,532 --> 00:19:43,494 of April twenty twenty six. So if the IRS wanted to actually look at it, 340 00:19:43,494 --> 00:19:47,245 the nineteen eighty-four law would have allowed it, 341 00:19:47,245 --> 00:19:48,976 basically, with senior approval. 342 00:19:48,976 --> 00:19:52,447 But there's no public sign that one was ever opened, 343 00:19:52,447 --> 00:19:56,908 and under the Privacy Act, there wouldn't be a public sign if one had been. 344 00:19:57,408 --> 00:20:02,426 Assume what you like. ~ federal income tax is one layer at issue here, 345 00:20:02,426 --> 00:20:06,292 but property tax is local and at the county level you can put a dollar figure 346 00:20:06,292 --> 00:20:07,294 on what the neighbors cover. 347 00:20:07,794 --> 00:20:12,528 So let's start with 2008. Terrent County appraisers denied a property 348 00:20:12,528 --> 00:20:14,860 tax exemption on one of the ministry's jets, 349 00:20:14,860 --> 00:20:19,223 a Cessna Bravo 550, worth about $3.6 million. 350 00:20:19,223 --> 00:20:23,967 The exemption application required a list of salaries, 351 00:20:23,967 --> 00:20:27,650 and the ministry just refused to provide it outright. 352 00:20:28,150 --> 00:20:29,781 And you can go ahead and read that as a choice. 353 00:20:29,781 --> 00:20:33,885 The ministry had a path to a tax break on a three point six million dollar aircraft. 354 00:20:33,885 --> 00:20:37,048 The price of the break was showing up to the county or showing 355 00:20:37,048 --> 00:20:38,429 the county what everybody gets paid. 356 00:20:38,429 --> 00:20:41,932 It kept the private payroll and gave up the exemption. 357 00:20:41,932 --> 00:20:45,055 That tells you something about how much the ministry values keeping 358 00:20:45,055 --> 00:20:46,486 its salaries out of public view. 359 00:20:46,986 --> 00:20:53,270 So in 2014, John Burnett at NPR reported that Tarrant County exempts thirty million 360 00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:56,572 dollars of Copeland property from local taxes. 361 00:20:56,572 --> 00:20:58,773 That number includes a parsonage, 362 00:20:58,773 --> 00:21:04,617 which is an 18,000 square foot home valued at six point three million dollars. 363 00:21:04,617 --> 00:21:06,359 Across 364 00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:07,319 Not usually associated with parsonages. 365 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:09,801 right, when I think of parsonage, 366 00:21:09,801 --> 00:21:12,593 I don't definitely don't think of an 18,000 square foot house. 367 00:21:12,593 --> 00:21:15,625 I usually think of a of a rotting cabin with a leaking roof. 368 00:21:16,125 --> 00:21:17,125 Now across 369 00:21:16,373 --> 00:21:17,373 Exactly. 370 00:21:17,278 --> 00:21:21,727 that property the the exemptions excuse about six hundred 371 00:21:21,727 --> 00:21:27,579 and sixty thousand dollars in property taxes from the previous year. 372 00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:33,732 And in 2021, the Houston Chronicle ran an investigation called Unfair Burden 373 00:21:33,772 --> 00:21:38,254 Tax Sanctuaries. By then, the Lakeside Mansion was valued at $7 million, 374 00:21:38,254 --> 00:21:40,875 and Reed Mansion is parsonage. 375 00:21:40,875 --> 00:21:41,955 It's owned 376 00:21:41,456 --> 00:21:42,456 Mm-hmm. 377 00:21:41,955 --> 00:21:43,606 by Eagle Mountain International Church, 378 00:21:43,606 --> 00:21:46,878 and it pays no property tax because it's classified as a parsonage under section 379 00:21:46,878 --> 00:21:50,099 eleven point two zero of the Texas Tax Code. 380 00:21:50,099 --> 00:21:53,809 The Chronicle put the savings at about $150,000 a year. 381 00:21:54,309 --> 00:21:57,761 So those two numbers measure different things, 382 00:21:57,761 --> 00:22:03,224 right? The NPR number covers the whole thirty million dollars of exempt property. 383 00:22:03,224 --> 00:22:06,706 And the chronicle number covers the house by itself, 384 00:22:06,706 --> 00:22:13,070 right? The $150,000 is just what the Copeland's primary home would owe. 385 00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:17,412 That money would otherwise go toward Terrant County services like schools 386 00:22:17,412 --> 00:22:20,414 and police and firefighters, libraries. 387 00:22:20,924 --> 00:22:25,271 So the household around the ministry pays a little more to make up 388 00:22:25,352 --> 00:22:26,647 for the house that pays nothing. 389 00:22:27,147 --> 00:22:31,041 And that comes out to by my count eight hundred and ten thousand between 390 00:22:31,041 --> 00:22:33,333 the two of them. If the three thirty 391 00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:33,460 Something like that. 392 00:22:33,333 --> 00:22:36,295 million was six hundred and sixty and the house was one hundred fifty. 393 00:22:36,295 --> 00:22:37,367 Anyway, 394 00:22:36,673 --> 00:22:37,673 Mm-hmm. 395 00:22:37,367 --> 00:22:41,020 ~ local officials haven't simply waived this through. 396 00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:43,302 Jeff Law, the Tarrant County Chief Appraiser, 397 00:22:43,302 --> 00:22:46,705 said in twenty twenty one that he would ask the church to reapply 398 00:22:46,705 --> 00:22:51,420 for the parsonage exemption. And Law's office is the same one that turned down 399 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:52,811 the Jet exemption in two thousand eight. 400 00:22:53,551 --> 00:22:55,266 So the county has pushed back at least twice, 401 00:22:55,266 --> 00:22:57,223 and in both cases the tool was paperwork. 402 00:22:57,223 --> 00:22:59,691 Make the ministry file and make it show something. 403 00:23:00,191 --> 00:23:03,903 Copeland is is far from the only Texas pastor using this exemption. 404 00:23:03,903 --> 00:23:08,835 In Houston, Bishop IV Hilliard of New Light Church World Outreach 405 00:23:08,835 --> 00:23:12,056 and Worship Centers has a parsonage in Spring, 406 00:23:12,056 --> 00:23:18,940 Texas of nearly 25,000 square feet on eleven point eight acres. 407 00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:23,312 It currently is avoiding about $100,000 per year in property taxes. 408 00:23:23,812 --> 00:23:26,955 And then there's Joel Osteen, a wealthy Texas megachurch, 409 00:23:25,749 --> 00:23:26,888 The one and only 410 00:23:27,635 --> 00:23:29,777 the one and only. None like him. 411 00:23:29,777 --> 00:23:33,616 the wealthy Texas megachurch pastor, 412 00:23:33,616 --> 00:23:37,263 by anybody's measure, pays about two hundred and eighteen thousand dollars 413 00:23:37,263 --> 00:23:40,566 a year in property taxes on his home and doesn't claim the parsonage exemption 414 00:23:41,824 --> 00:23:43,215 Now, Osteen's tax, 415 00:23:42,368 --> 00:23:43,368 to his credit. 416 00:23:43,795 --> 00:23:48,597 yeah, to his credit, I guess. Osteen's tax bill settles one argument. 417 00:23:48,597 --> 00:23:54,029 The parson exit parsonage exemption is something specific pastors 418 00:23:54,029 --> 00:24:00,802 can decide to claim, right? The richest pastor in Houston pays $218,000 419 00:24:00,802 --> 00:24:03,722 per year. He could have tried to avoid. 420 00:24:03,722 --> 00:24:09,645 And Copeland and Hilliard, with houses of $18,000 and nearly $25,000. 421 00:24:10,181 --> 00:24:12,730 square feet decided I'm gonna take that break. 422 00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:16,313 Which also means the exemptions defenders can't claim it's essential 423 00:24:16,313 --> 00:24:20,297 to running a large ministry. Lakewood Church operates with its pastor paying full 424 00:24:20,297 --> 00:24:21,508 property tax on his house. 425 00:24:22,008 --> 00:24:25,581 Now the jets themselves get raised for in public, 426 00:24:25,581 --> 00:24:29,633 right? And the pitches travel from you know preacher to preacher. 427 00:24:29,633 --> 00:24:34,516 In 2015, Creeflow Dollars World Changers Church International in College Park, 428 00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:39,000 Georgia launched its project called Project G650. 429 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,684 The goal was about $65 million for a Gulfstream G650. 430 00:24:44,684 --> 00:24:48,627 The ask was for 200,000 people. 431 00:24:49,343 --> 00:24:52,341 To give three hundred dollars or more each. 432 00:24:52,841 --> 00:24:54,703 The math on that ask is straightforward. 433 00:24:54,703 --> 00:24:59,228 Two hundred thousand people at three hundred dollars apiece comes to sixty million. 434 00:24:59,228 --> 00:25:02,271 And the or more was supposed to cover the last five million. 435 00:25:02,271 --> 00:25:07,356 And this was the same Creflow dollar whose for profit company World Airs already 436 00:25:07,356 --> 00:25:09,518 owned the Gulf Stream Gulf Stream he usually flew, 437 00:25:09,518 --> 00:25:12,061 according to the reporting around the Senate investigation. 438 00:25:12,561 --> 00:25:16,644 Now, to be fair, public backlash actually shut the campaign down within 439 00:25:16,644 --> 00:25:21,319 a couple of days. The ministry had a New York public relations firm, 440 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:27,765 5W Public Relations, who handled the response with Judy or sorry, 441 00:25:27,765 --> 00:25:33,851 Judah Ingle Mayer, representing Creeflo Dollar Ministries during this entire ordeal. 442 00:25:34,351 --> 00:25:38,014 So public pressure has stopped at least one of these campaigns and stopped it fast. 443 00:25:38,014 --> 00:25:41,167 When the ask is sixty-five million in a single announcement, 444 00:25:41,167 --> 00:25:43,489 people notice. The routine costs, 445 00:25:43,489 --> 00:25:44,950 the parsonage exemption every year, 446 00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:46,161 the lease payment every month, 447 00:25:46,161 --> 00:25:47,913 never produce that kind of moment. 448 00:25:48,413 --> 00:25:51,585 And then old Jesse Duplanis from Destrahan, 449 00:25:51,585 --> 00:25:56,179 Louisiana. In twenty eighteen he asked his followers to support a 450 00:25:56,179 --> 00:26:00,832 new Desalt Falcon 7X, a fifty-four million dollar aircraft, 451 00:26:00,832 --> 00:26:03,764 and said God had told him to believe for it. 452 00:26:04,644 --> 00:26:06,445 follow-up came on November 27th, 453 00:26:06,445 --> 00:26:12,388 2023. Duplantis was appearing at Kenneth Copeland Ministries Telethon when 454 00:26:12,388 --> 00:26:14,449 he announced that he had bought the Falcon 7X. 455 00:26:14,449 --> 00:26:18,381 It was a used 2008 model, and the reported price was 21 million. 456 00:26:18,381 --> 00:26:23,253 The till number is in N7JD, I think it's a shortened tail number there. 457 00:26:23,253 --> 00:26:26,355 ~ and the plane is registered to Voice of the Covenant Church Inc., 458 00:26:26,355 --> 00:26:28,666 which is the legal name of Jesse Duplantis Ministries. 459 00:26:29,166 --> 00:26:31,189 So that that is a correction we do owe the ministry, 460 00:26:31,189 --> 00:26:34,733 right? That the headline figure from twenty eighteen was fifty four million. 461 00:26:34,733 --> 00:26:38,558 And what Duplanus paid came in at less than half of it. 462 00:26:38,558 --> 00:26:45,067 The big round numbers in the appeals tend to overstate what gets spent, 463 00:26:45,067 --> 00:26:47,040 but he bought it on faith. 464 00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:49,242 And the airplane is registered to a church. 465 00:26:49,242 --> 00:26:51,544 So the same protections we walked through for Copeland, 466 00:26:51,544 --> 00:26:54,628 no Form nine ninety, the nineteen eighty four audit rules, 467 00:26:54,628 --> 00:26:56,290 the secrecy around any penalties, 468 00:26:56,290 --> 00:27:00,174 cover a twenty one million dollar Falcon seven X in Louisiana. 469 00:27:00,174 --> 00:27:02,287 Look at where you made the announcement too. 470 00:27:02,287 --> 00:27:04,979 Copeland's Telethon was the stage for yet another preacher's jet. 471 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,341 Trinity Foundation's tracking work, 472 00:27:07,341 --> 00:27:12,064 reported in 2025, connected aircraft to more names. 473 00:27:12,064 --> 00:27:17,667 Bishop I. V. Hilliard, the same pastor with the nearly 25,000 square foot parsonage. 474 00:27:17,667 --> 00:27:21,040 Joni Lamb of Daystar Television Network, 475 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,611 which is classified as a church, 476 00:27:22,611 --> 00:27:26,283 also filing no Form 990. 477 00:27:26,283 --> 00:27:29,095 Keith Kraft of Elevate Life Church in Frisco, 478 00:27:29,095 --> 00:27:31,106 Texas, and Kenneth Copeland. 479 00:27:31,606 --> 00:27:34,539 Hilliard and Lamb are the useful cases there because each one shows 480 00:27:34,539 --> 00:27:36,660 a different protection stacking on top of a plane. 481 00:27:36,660 --> 00:27:39,323 For Hilliard, it's the parsonage exemption plus the aircraft. 482 00:27:39,323 --> 00:27:42,616 For Lamb, it's a broadcast network wearing a church's legal status, 483 00:27:42,616 --> 00:27:45,262 which means the network's plane comes with the church's disclosure rules. 484 00:27:45,762 --> 00:27:48,863 And then the next generation. In June 2025, 485 00:27:48,863 --> 00:27:53,094 Religion Unplugged reported that Copeland's grandson, 486 00:27:53,094 --> 00:27:57,225 Jeremy Pearsons, is raising money for a private jet. 487 00:27:57,225 --> 00:28:00,526 He's the son of Terry Copeland Pearsons, 488 00:28:00,526 --> 00:28:06,767 who heads Legacy Church. The aviation site Jetly put the target 489 00:28:06,767 --> 00:28:09,968 at $2 million for a Cessna citation Bravo. 490 00:28:09,968 --> 00:28:14,449 That number comes from an aggregator rather than original reporting. 491 00:28:14,923 --> 00:28:15,923 Take it for what it's worth. 492 00:28:16,228 --> 00:28:18,289 I do like the unplugged album by religion, 493 00:28:18,289 --> 00:28:23,526 ~ but the you read enough of this stuff and it's the righteous gemstone starts 494 00:28:23,526 --> 00:28:28,271 to seem a little understated. ~ this these habits run in the family. 495 00:28:28,271 --> 00:28:30,083 The grandfather flew for Royal Roberts, 496 00:28:30,083 --> 00:28:32,005 built a fleet of five aircraft in an airport, 497 00:28:32,005 --> 00:28:34,407 and hosted the telethon where Duplantis announced his jet. 498 00:28:34,407 --> 00:28:37,871 Now the grandson runs his own church and has his own fundraising campaign 499 00:28:37,871 --> 00:28:38,871 for a new plane. 500 00:28:39,042 --> 00:28:42,945 Now, the defense. And it should get a hearing too. 501 00:28:42,945 --> 00:28:46,327 In 2008, the commentator Doug Weed, 502 00:28:46,327 --> 00:28:52,412 WEAD, argued that about 16,000 corporations operate their own aircraft. 503 00:28:52,412 --> 00:28:55,114 He pointed out that Billy Graham's ministry, 504 00:28:55,114 --> 00:28:59,858 the Mormon Church, and Catholic diocese all use private planes. 505 00:28:59,858 --> 00:29:03,271 And he argued that Pentecostal ministries were being singled out. 506 00:29:03,771 --> 00:29:05,412 And that's a partisan blog post, 507 00:29:05,412 --> 00:29:07,372 and it contains at least one real fact. 508 00:29:07,372 --> 00:29:10,733 Large religious organizations do use private aircraft, 509 00:29:10,733 --> 00:29:12,654 and Copeland's ministry would hardly be the first. 510 00:29:12,654 --> 00:29:16,135 Where the comparison runs into trouble is the Bonnie Parker family. 511 00:29:16,135 --> 00:29:19,496 They gave to a ministry, they asked that ministry where the money went, 512 00:29:19,496 --> 00:29:21,737 and they got an accounting firm statement about jet travel. 513 00:29:21,737 --> 00:29:24,958 The defense covers whether a ministry may own a plane. 514 00:29:24,958 --> 00:29:27,789 It says nothing about whether the people who paid for the plane can see the book. 515 00:29:28,289 --> 00:29:32,081 And the 16,000 corporation figure cuts the other way too. 516 00:29:32,081 --> 00:29:38,005 A corporation's plane gets paid for out of revenue that the corporation earns. 517 00:29:38,005 --> 00:29:40,686 Like it or not, that's capitalism, 518 00:29:40,686 --> 00:29:43,868 but they're paying for it with their own money. 519 00:29:43,868 --> 00:29:50,232 The citation 10 was paid for by donors through direct asks 520 00:29:50,772 --> 00:29:56,115 in a ministry that tells people their giving will get them into heaven. 521 00:29:56,615 --> 00:29:58,775 So let's be specific about where pressure has worked, 522 00:29:58,775 --> 00:30:00,653 because the record has a few cases where it did. 523 00:30:01,153 --> 00:30:03,094 Clearuses in Tarrant County in 2008. 524 00:30:03,094 --> 00:30:05,775 The county required a salary list for the jet exemption, 525 00:30:05,775 --> 00:30:07,715 but the ministry just refused. 526 00:30:07,715 --> 00:30:12,437 And the county denied the exemption on a $3.6 million aircraft. 527 00:30:12,437 --> 00:30:17,399 A disclosure requirement at a county level produced a real tax bill that 528 00:30:17,479 --> 00:30:22,501 any of us could see. Jeff Law's 2021 decision to have the church reapply 529 00:30:22,501 --> 00:30:25,882 for the parsonage exemption uses the same exact mechanism. 530 00:30:25,882 --> 00:30:30,794 Every reapplication is a chance for the county to ask for documents. 531 00:30:31,294 --> 00:30:33,516 The second clear case is the Senate investigation, 532 00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:37,409 at least as far as the two ministries that cooperated were concerned. 533 00:30:37,409 --> 00:30:40,602 Joyce Meyer ministries and Benny Hinn ministries changed how they set 534 00:30:40,602 --> 00:30:42,264 pay and run their organizations. 535 00:30:42,264 --> 00:30:44,826 The scrutiny did that without a single subpoena. 536 00:30:44,826 --> 00:30:47,788 The four that refused face refused, 537 00:30:47,788 --> 00:30:50,651 the other ministries faced no consequence, 538 00:30:50,651 --> 00:30:52,192 and Grassley's own staff said why. 539 00:30:52,192 --> 00:30:55,715 They lacked the quote time or resources to issue subpoenas. 540 00:30:55,715 --> 00:30:58,598 The power existed, and the committee chose not to spend it. 541 00:30:59,098 --> 00:31:02,519 And then, of course, the third is the IRS's bank records route. 542 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:06,460 So the the appeals court ruling means church records held by a bank 543 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,181 are breachable without the 1984 notice and meeting process. 544 00:31:12,181 --> 00:31:17,333 An agency that wanted to look at where a ministry's money went actually 545 00:31:17,333 --> 00:31:19,723 has a mechanism to do it. The audit numbers, 546 00:31:19,723 --> 00:31:25,975 one examination in fiscal 2014 and 14 across two years more recently. 547 00:31:26,699 --> 00:31:32,021 Show how rarely the agency has actually decided to look with or without that power. 548 00:31:32,521 --> 00:31:37,252 And the fourth investigation is the ~ public project G six fifty. 549 00:31:37,252 --> 00:31:39,753 Project G six fifty died 550 00:31:39,443 --> 00:31:40,443 Yeah. 551 00:31:39,753 --> 00:31:43,484 within days. Duplantis ended up using buying a used plane for twenty 552 00:31:43,484 --> 00:31:44,594 one million dollars. And I mean, 553 00:31:44,594 --> 00:31:46,035 come on, let's pour one out for our boy, 554 00:31:46,035 --> 00:31:49,286 Jesse Duplantis, because having to take a twenty one million dollar plane when 555 00:31:49,286 --> 00:31:51,066 you're hoping for a fifty four million dollar plane, 556 00:31:51,066 --> 00:31:52,337 that's just rough. 557 00:31:52,585 --> 00:31:53,585 It just hurts. 558 00:31:53,317 --> 00:31:57,788 ~ yeah, that's just me, man. ~ Inside Edition put a camera in front 559 00:31:57,788 --> 00:31:59,559 of Copeland and got the quotes, 560 00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:01,079 tube full of demons. 561 00:32:01,675 --> 00:32:02,690 Which let's talk about that. I mean, 562 00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:05,000 does he warn his ~ his followers of that? 563 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,008 ~ but he got two 564 00:32:06,111 --> 00:32:07,262 No, I do you remember 565 00:32:07,262 --> 00:32:08,693 that interview when it blew up though? 566 00:32:08,693 --> 00:32:11,315 You can pull it. 567 00:32:09,449 --> 00:32:11,378 I I don't I I somehow missed that one. 568 00:32:11,475 --> 00:32:14,788 ~ it's on YouTube. He basically says that he can't 569 00:32:14,788 --> 00:32:21,223 fly commercial because commercial airplanes are essentially there's just 570 00:32:21,364 --> 00:32:26,608 tubes full of demons. And demons who come and go have the opportunity 571 00:32:26,608 --> 00:32:30,591 to attach themselves to him while he's in those public airplanes. 572 00:32:31,091 --> 00:32:34,478 it's a good thing the demons can't fly at the same level or can't get 573 00:32:34,478 --> 00:32:37,073 on the ~ citations or the Gulf Streams or any those. 574 00:32:35,778 --> 00:32:37,362 I didn't know demons could fly, 575 00:32:37,362 --> 00:32:38,362 so that was new to me. 576 00:32:39,165 --> 00:32:40,947 Yeah, man, they have all kinds of powers. 577 00:32:40,947 --> 00:32:42,438 Just read this present darkness. 578 00:32:42,939 --> 00:32:43,939 Right. 579 00:32:43,339 --> 00:32:48,874 ~ all right, so we got those quotes, 580 00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:49,668 He also said I'm a very wealthy man. 581 00:32:48,874 --> 00:32:49,874 yeah. 582 00:32:50,425 --> 00:32:52,837 Right, yeah, his his other quote was I'm a very wealthy man, 583 00:32:52,837 --> 00:32:55,209 ~ which isn't a rare bit of honesty there, 584 00:32:55,209 --> 00:32:58,352 but attention has has changed the behavior at the edges in this case. 585 00:32:58,352 --> 00:32:59,704 At least the pressure got to him, 586 00:32:59,704 --> 00:33:01,295 ~ maybe in more ways than one. 587 00:33:01,795 --> 00:33:04,717 But the truth is it does it hasn't really touch parts that never 588 00:33:04,897 --> 00:33:08,300 get their own newspaper article or headline or podcast or whatever. 589 00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:11,152 The parsonage on the lake, right? 590 00:33:11,152 --> 00:33:16,205 Avoids ~ what is it, $150,000 in property taxes every year? 591 00:33:16,205 --> 00:33:17,205 I mean, that's like 592 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:18,039 Right. 593 00:33:17,946 --> 00:33:20,438 I mean, i in five years you could build a school. 594 00:33:20,438 --> 00:33:25,152 Like you know what I mean? Like you if you gave the library and it 595 00:33:22,083 --> 00:33:25,153 Right. Or pay some teachers finally. 596 00:33:25,492 --> 00:33:28,934 exactly. Or or if you gave the library $150,000 a year. 597 00:33:28,934 --> 00:33:29,934 ~ 598 00:33:29,994 --> 00:33:31,735 Imagine what we could do with a library, 599 00:33:31,735 --> 00:33:37,828 right? The 15 members, family members that just as staff drew one 600 00:33:37,828 --> 00:33:44,782 and a half million dollars. John Copeland's $73,000 purchase of land that just 601 00:33:44,782 --> 00:33:46,903 so happened to be sitting on an oil and gas field, 602 00:33:46,903 --> 00:33:52,105 right? Eddie Long's $30,000 a month lease of his own company. 603 00:33:52,105 --> 00:33:58,189 He created a company to rent a part of the company back to himself for a profit. 604 00:33:58,189 --> 00:33:59,189 Like 605 00:33:59,189 --> 00:34:02,651 It's literally just capitalism between two corporations owned and controlled 606 00:34:02,651 --> 00:34:05,272 by the same person, where the person in the middle is just making 607 00:34:05,272 --> 00:34:06,812 the money between the two organizations. 608 00:34:06,812 --> 00:34:08,112 The Gulfstream, 609 00:34:07,416 --> 00:34:08,619 I think that's called a shell game. 610 00:34:09,007 --> 00:34:11,534 I I think that's exactly what a shell game is. 611 00:34:11,534 --> 00:34:15,915 The Gulfstream flight to the the Oz rally in Palm Beach, 612 00:34:15,915 --> 00:34:21,068 right? None of those produced any consequence whatsoever that any of 613 00:34:21,068 --> 00:34:24,219 us have been able to find. And under the Privacy Act, 614 00:34:24,219 --> 00:34:26,239 any, you know. 615 00:34:26,947 --> 00:34:29,638 Perjury, penalty, default, whatever, 616 00:34:29,638 --> 00:34:33,110 it would stay completely sealed and completely off the books from us. 617 00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:36,202 And look, I I Sorry. 618 00:34:35,333 --> 00:34:36,333 Sorry. 619 00:34:36,281 --> 00:34:38,743 ~ I I I just wanted to to toss in here. 620 00:34:38,743 --> 00:34:41,844 This isn't this has nothing to do with with you know your faith. 621 00:34:41,844 --> 00:34:45,226 If you if you believe in this in in Christianity or if you believe 622 00:34:45,226 --> 00:34:47,246 in these ministries, that's fine. 623 00:34:47,246 --> 00:34:49,556 You know, there's no there's no harm in it, 624 00:34:49,556 --> 00:34:54,369 but there is real harm when they're using it as a methodology for A for them 625 00:34:54,369 --> 00:34:58,191 to get rich, which directly goes against what it says in the Bible. 626 00:34:58,191 --> 00:35:01,943 It's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for 627 00:35:01,943 --> 00:35:03,093 a rich man to get into heaven. 628 00:35:03,593 --> 00:35:07,057 And I mean this was kind of started by Oral Roberts, 629 00:35:07,057 --> 00:35:11,042 if we're being honest anyway, about the whole prosperity gospel theology. 630 00:35:11,042 --> 00:35:15,836 But also it's hurting real people because they're taking your money 631 00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:20,732 and and telling you that you'll have blessings for it and then just using 632 00:35:20,732 --> 00:35:21,733 it to buy airplanes. 633 00:35:22,233 --> 00:35:25,756 And unfortunately, after the handful of investigations and the lack of any kind 634 00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:30,530 of ~ consequences at all, we're back with Bonnie Parker's family right where they 635 00:35:30,530 --> 00:35:33,562 started. They asked the Copelands for an accounting of what Ms. 636 00:35:33,562 --> 00:35:36,945 Miss Parker gave, and the ministry declined interviews and pointed 637 00:35:36,945 --> 00:35:38,346 to an accounting firm statement. 638 00:35:38,346 --> 00:35:40,889 No senator, no county appraiser, 639 00:35:40,889 --> 00:35:43,971 and no IRS examiner has ever been in a position to give them the number they asked 640 00:35:43,971 --> 00:35:46,033 for, and the ministry's never offered it. 641 00:35:46,533 --> 00:35:47,643 And that's pretty much it, right? 642 00:35:47,643 --> 00:35:51,307 Like that's the real issue here is that that nothing would compel them just 643 00:35:51,307 --> 00:35:55,901 to tell them how much money their mother had donated through the years 644 00:35:55,901 --> 00:35:58,183 to the ministry. Now to be fair, 645 00:35:58,183 --> 00:36:02,486 you know, the sh probably could have pulled bank records and and gotten 646 00:36:02,486 --> 00:36:09,182 it all together. But wouldn't it be at least kind to just give her, 647 00:36:09,182 --> 00:36:13,776 you know, family a a statement of of all of the giving that she had given 648 00:36:13,776 --> 00:36:14,957 to the ministry over the years? 649 00:36:15,759 --> 00:36:16,839 But sh they don't have to, right? 650 00:36:16,839 --> 00:36:18,272 I mean there's no law that makes them. 651 00:36:18,772 --> 00:36:21,473 Right, I guess the other thing she asked for was an accounting of what 652 00:36:21,473 --> 00:36:23,924 the how they spent the money or the family asked for how they spent 653 00:36:23,924 --> 00:36:27,315 the money as well. But even that they could have just released some portion 654 00:36:27,315 --> 00:36:29,506 of it and said 'cause it's not as if every dollar's tracked, 655 00:36:29,506 --> 00:36:30,554 right? And 656 00:36:30,142 --> 00:36:31,142 Right. 657 00:36:30,554 --> 00:36:34,458 once it goes into an account, it just becomes ~ you know, 658 00:36:34,458 --> 00:36:37,599 ~ commoditized with the rest of with every other dollar. 659 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:40,266 So ~ if you take that away, you know, 660 00:36:40,266 --> 00:36:43,161 it's not like they're gonna told her something to give a little peace of mind, 661 00:36:43,161 --> 00:36:46,252 like, hey, we spent you know, tell her at least about how they saved 662 00:36:46,252 --> 00:36:48,393 a hundred and twenty million people and what they spent that money on. 663 00:36:48,999 --> 00:36:49,999 Right. 664 00:36:49,525 --> 00:36:51,064 That would that would give her some peace of mind, 665 00:36:51,064 --> 00:36:52,064 perhaps. 666 00:36:52,126 --> 00:36:55,559 Exactly. And I think I think at all of this though, 667 00:36:55,559 --> 00:36:57,170 it's not it's not just churches. 668 00:36:57,170 --> 00:36:59,592 Companies play this exact game, 669 00:36:59,592 --> 00:37:02,605 even and especially non profits. 670 00:37:02,605 --> 00:37:08,580 It's why we will be doing a future episode on how the rich use non profits 671 00:37:08,580 --> 00:37:14,705 to funnel money back to their own family members without having to pay actual taxes 672 00:37:12,938 --> 00:37:14,695 So for for profit then. 673 00:37:14,705 --> 00:37:16,226 on them. Yes, for profit. 674 00:37:16,726 --> 00:37:21,683 But this was just an expose of private jets for Jesus 675 00:37:22,364 --> 00:37:25,067 The Tax Free Prosperity Gospel Racket. 676 00:37:25,067 --> 00:37:27,450 That's the episode. 677 00:37:26,581 --> 00:37:27,581 Amen. 678 00:37:27,891 --> 00:37:28,891 I'm Joshua. 679 00:37:29,022 --> 00:37:30,973 I'm Will. See you next week. 680 00:37:30,385 --> 00:37:31,385 Make sure to check 681 00:37:30,975 --> 00:37:35,579 us out on FOF.foundation, on Apple Podcasts, 682 00:37:35,579 --> 00:37:38,341 on Spotify. Give us a rating, five stars, 683 00:37:38,341 --> 00:37:42,465 or you can send us an email at the overlap at FOF.foundation. 684 00:37:42,465 --> 00:37:46,127 That's theOverlap at FOF.foundation. 685 00:37:46,127 --> 00:37:48,870 Shoot us a text over there. We'll be happy to respond. 686 00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:52,713 Otherwise, that's it. Take care of each other. 687 00:37:52,713 --> 00:37:55,895 Help where you can. And like we always say, 688 00:37:55,895 --> 00:37:57,654 bye.