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If this is where you picked up the podcast today, you are in the wrong place.

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This is a part two of a two-part episode.

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Go back to last week's episode and check that one out and give it a start and come back

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right here and join us here at The Overlap as we talk about AI, cryptocurrency, electricity,

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and the future of innovation.

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All right.

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Now welcome back to part two of The Overlap podcast about AI, cryptocurrency, and electricity.

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Will, why don't you kick it off where we left off from?

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Right.

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So, why the hope that these two technologies, although they're very energy hungry, we understand

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now, why they're so energy hungry?

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How do we come up with this idea that perhaps they could rescue us from the energy scarce

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or energy consuming future that we fear and actually give us a positive way out?

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I asked that question, I'm actually going to ask you that question.

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Are you asking me?

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I mean, I have my answer, but.

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Well, what we have is we have examples from the past, right?

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Yeah.

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And the fact that new technologies, although they appear to at first be energy consuming,

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actually enable us to create things that are energy producing, right?

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The very steam turbines we were just talking about, if we could bury these AI and use them

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to heat water and all that, those turbines exist because of the industrial revolution

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and the things that that made available.

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Our variability to harness steam in engines was what gave us the capacity to generate much

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more energy than we actually used ever prior to the industrial revolution.

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And while there's.

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Yeah, I think.

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Go ahead.

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Go ahead.

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We both do that to each other all the time.

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I think that it's important to evaluate this, right?

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I think we're at the precipice of a junction in which we're looking at a major categorical

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shift in how we do things, right?

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For millennia, the human progress was limited by the power that could be generated by human

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and animal muscle.

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Right.

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And that was that was the limit, whether that was swinging of an axe or the walking of an

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ox.

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So the development of the water wheel, for example, produced an increase.

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We had it.

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We had it there that we were now able to extend ourselves past our own physical limitations

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and the limitations of work animals.

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So we have the water wheel, right.

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But they were then geographically tethered.

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They were tethered to rivers.

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If there was no river in the area, there could be no water wheel.

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Right.

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And then you have the steam engine like you were talking about.

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That that thing by itself transformed and created the power available to a society by

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about 600 times.

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So a steam engine had about 600 times the maximum amount of power that a human being

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or an animal could produce.

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Exactly.

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And that's good.

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But because because the coal used to create the steam engines could be transported almost

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anywhere, right.

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Now you can have a steam engine completely decoupled from energy production and completely

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from geography for the first time in the in the history of the modern world.

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Which is the industrial revolution, which gave way to factories and railroads and mass

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production.

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Exactly.

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And now we have access to a technology that can simulate potentially one day simulate

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new types of engines and new types of energy retrieving and generating devices that can

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potentially unlock more power than we can even conceive of now to not only feed the

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future AI and future cryptocurrency devices, but also many other things that we may not

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have even dreamt of yet.

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Perhaps those starships that you were talking about before.

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Yeah, I think I think one way that crypto is similar in this scenario is that it decouples

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our system of trading from any one country.

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Right.

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And allows free money in the same way that cross borders without needing middle middlemen.

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We're using a network in place of that.

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So we're increasing our ability to exchange goods and services.

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And then on the AI side, I see it as you know, in the same way that the steam engine was

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an answer to to overcoming the limitations of human ability physically, AI is now the

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hope I don't know that it does now.

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I don't think it does is the hope that it can now overcome our mental capacity and our

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mental abilities generally by 600 times, but even more than 600 times.

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I mean, if we had a GI, we could put a GI to building its own a si and we would potentially

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see an even bigger savings.

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But go ahead.

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Go ahead.

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I didn't have anything else.

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I was going to let you go with that thought.

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Oh, no, I think I lost my train of thought there.

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Well, I think, I mean, to your point, like this idea that by setting free the value system,

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right.

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The thing that the sort of to use the analogy or to torture the analogy a little bit, the

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engine and the input of our economic systems.

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By setting that free, we can enable people to utilize the technology and the intelligence

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that we hope that a GI will eventually generate to take us to that level.

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Like you said, take us far beyond anything we've conceived and way beyond 600 times our

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output productivity.

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Because I think you could probably argue that GPT's and LLMs have already done that in some,

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to some extent, with our thought output or content outputs, right?

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I think there are studies about how much output there is from GPT's even currently.

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And we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of what they're capable of.

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Yeah.

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Because I find in general our data tends to be reflexive, you know.

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Right.

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So I mean, that's kind of, you know, the history though, I guess to dive a little bit more

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into that or to elaborate a little bit more on that is just that, you know, the new technologies

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enable things that were never thought of, right.

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So the harnessing of electricity or the harnessing of a steam turbine gave the possibility of

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steady enough electricity or steady enough power output to use incandescent light bulbs,

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right.

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Which allowed us like to, which basically freed up the 24 hour world that we all live

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in now, right.

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Whereas before you were limited to, you know, how many candles you could put around you

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and, you know, utilizing at a given time and there was limitation to how much light that

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generated.

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You know, eventually now we have skyscrapers full of incandescent light bulbs and all sorts

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of other, you know, technologies that were never even dreamt up before the industrial

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revolution.

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The hope is that that will repeat itself but even on a much larger scale, an incomprehensively

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larger scale than it did the first time around.

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Yeah.

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I think another example of that is sort of like the fossil fuel generation industry,

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right.

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I think none of us disagree that fossil burning and consumption of fossil fuels is bad for

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the planet.

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It's bad for our overall air quality.

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It affects our ability to breathe and to succeed in the far future.

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Maybe not as far as I think but that persistent demand for energy drove relentless technological

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advancement.

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So over the past century you've seen improvements in extraction techniques, extraction technologies,

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horizontal drilling in wells, right, and look I'm not a fan of fracking.

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I, especially where I live, I think it actively hurts me.

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I've sat through earthquakes that I've never, never experienced an earthquake before in

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the middle of the United States but because of fracking we're seeing those things increase.

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The US coal miner for instance increased ninefold.

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Their production, their output increased ninefold in 50 years.

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So these innovations have always pushed back the predictions of resource scarcity by giving

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us a higher output and driving innovation through demonstrating that really reserves

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are really not a fixed geological quantity but a dynamic sort of economic and technological

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one.

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Right, and essentially what it amounts to as I see it is that humanity is hurtling down

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the road at an ever-increasing speed.

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The question is where are we headed towards?

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Paradise and utopia or are we headed towards destruction?

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And the signs change pretty frequently depending on what you look around and see as to which

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road we're on or whether we're on the road that could lead to both.

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And the decisions we make today are probably going to determine where we end up.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And technology's just going to accelerate that speed and multiply that effort.

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Yeah, and I mean I guess sometimes I think we do have to kind of sit back and say to

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what end.

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Right.

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And I think that reason differs for everyone.

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I think I have my own reasons for wanting to see it.

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I think a couple of ways that we've already seen that I think are really good examples

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in already with text generation is the ability to use specific A&I models to mimic the replication

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and synthesization of proteins that can produce new chemicals, new cures, new, it helps to

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fight diseases.

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Now I think that there's pluses and minuses to that both.

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Maybe, through these sort of protein synthesis, we can overcome and help eventually cure cancer,

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but at the same time that also might open up a whole new world of toxic chemicals that

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people can use for biological warfare.

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Right?

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I think that there are tradeoffs that we have which is, I mean obviously it's a great reason

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for regulation, which I'm pro-regulation around these sorts of things for that very reason.

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But it's like saying, look, we could find the cure to every known world illness by employing

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an A&I model to do it.

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Yes, it takes a lot of electricity, but we could save lives in the long run.

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So should we completely ignore our ability to cure these diseases because it uses a lot

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of electricity and that could eventually kill the planet as a whole?

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Or do we say, no, why don't we point it at those problems and develop those technologies

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to solve those problems as they arise at the speed of faster than human thinking?

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Right.

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And who do we allow to utilize those computers?

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Because on the one hand, there's the worry about a rogue actor who might discover some

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sort of terrible new virus and unleash it on the world.

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But then on the other hand, there are pharmaceutical companies who know that they'll be putting

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themselves out of business if they cure all the illnesses.

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And are they going to be able to resist the temptation to create new illnesses on their

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pipeline?

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Hey, that's why I'm a socialist, I'm just saying, you know what I mean?

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Not right there, that's reasonable.

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A democratic socialist, not by force, but through democratic means.

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I think one of the things that I wanted to point out, and look, there's detriments to

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this and I hope we can poke holes in it.

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And what I think you're saying, Will, is that as we get down this road that there kind of

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is no way back from, right?

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You wouldn't be able to just reel AI back in and reel cryptocurrency back in.

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Obviously, in the cryptocurrency sake, part of the design was such that it could not be

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reeled in by any single entity or any single force.

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But in the sense of AI, I mean, there are ways in already putting measures in place

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to limit harm, I think is that we have also, as things have come around, increased, A,

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our knowledge, right?

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Like scientifically, when we were putting coal out in the world, we didn't think, "Oh,

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this is going to cause global climate change."

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We basically just thought we have a need and that is we need more energy.

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We need to put light bulbs in everybody's houses so we could take them away from having

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only eight hours of every day with daylight or 12 hours of every day with daylight to

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we don't need people dying of useless diseases, but we also don't need to trade our ecological

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wealth for curing diseases because either way, we're going to die.

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Which one's going to be the worst?

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And I think that doesn't have to be a decision that we live with every day.

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I mean, sorry, that we live with one time.

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I think it's something that we can live with every day and say, "Look, are we getting closer?"

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That to me is kind of the epitome of science is collecting that data and making meaningful

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observations, and then adjusting to those observations.

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Right, it's feedback.

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It's using our feedback and using it to take us to the next step and make the next decision,

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the scientific method.

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So let's talk a little bit about some of the, and even before AI and cryptocurrency, we've

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had a need of wanting and needing to generate more and more and more electricity as we increase

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our technology, right?

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The current power grid is in a miserable state.

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We know that.

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We need lots of infrastructure improvements.

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And we're seeing major swaths of Texas being browned out at certain times.

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They talk about blackouts in California, and we've seen demand-related problems.

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And I think it's more than just one thing.

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First of all, I think that it's because we generate electricity for money, we create false

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scarcity.

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And if we don't create a whole lot of generation, if we don't have a lot of means of generating

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electricity, we keep the costs higher, right?

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Because then we keep the threat of losing it that much.

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And as we increase not just these technologies, but as the temperature rises globally, there

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will be an even greater need for what?

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Temperature control, for air conditioning, for heating, in incredibly cold winters and

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air conditioning in hot summers.

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That demand is going to increase regardless, as long as we continue to increase as a species.

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We've agreed.

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We're not getting any further away from utilizing that energy.

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That's where we're headed, is more and more consumption.

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And the hope is that these technologies will allow us to keep pushing the limits further

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and further while not destroying ourselves in the process.

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Yeah.

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So let's talk about some of the advances that we've already seen in the current electricity

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and power generation space that are sort of driving innovation.

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I think one thing that has been kind of flip-flopped back and forth and has somehow been made political

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is something like nuclear power generation.

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Ultimately, it's terrible, but it really does come down to steam engines.

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And nuclear power generation facilities are essentially just using nuclear power to boil

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water because it has a greater output to input ratio.

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And then steam engines turn and that generates electricity.

239
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We're still on the same standard, right?

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But it's incredibly difficult to enrich plutonium, to find plutonium, and it's also very dangerous

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to mine it.

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It's a very dirty process, both on the front end and the back end.

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And then there's also the problems, obviously, Chernobyl, if there's some sort of radioactive

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chemical spill in this scenario or radioactive condition.

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Right.

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But we're able to hopefully utilize these, again, these advancing technologies to offset

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those dangers to give us new safety procedures, new development.

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There's a lot of ways, and they're also advising us or simulating these sorts of reactions

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and telling us how to make them safer, how to make them more efficient, and how to increase

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the output without endangering ourselves or blowing ourselves into oblivion.

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Yeah.

252
00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:53,700
And there's also been alternatives proposed, right?

253
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There's two approaches when you're faced with the reality of the dangers of a particular

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type of energy generation.

255
00:17:01,420 --> 00:17:08,980
In the case of nuclear, yeah, nuclear waste and nuclear spills and enrichment of nuclear

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material is dangerous, inherently.

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What can we do to overcome that?

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And you see that has already driven productivity gains in energy.

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China, this year, brought on their first thorium nuclear reactor.

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Now thorium is a little bit easier to cultivate, to enrich.

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I don't think the returns are as high, but the dangers are lower.

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So they're bringing on this thorium.

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From what I understand, thorium is still pretty dirty.

264
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:42,860
It's similar to plutonium, but not as much so.

265
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Again, a trade off, right?

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For additional progress, you got to have a little bit of malaise.

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We've made significant, in the past three years, we've made a significant movement toward

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nuclear fission.

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For the first time ever, I believe China, and then it was reproduced in California,

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there was a nuclear fission reaction that was for the first time ever a net gain of electricity.

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So it required a lot less to put out than it did, or than it consumed, which is enormous.

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I mean, that's massive because in a fusion reaction, you're not going to have the actual,

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the explosive part, right?

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If you think about it, it goes inward and creates cold.

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It doesn't implode as opposed to exploding.

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You're joining two atoms together rather than exploding them apart.

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Which again, is going to, I mean, it could be massive.

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If we could get nuclear fusion to a point where the net gains are just interminable,

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you could literally put a fusion reactor, in terms of safety, you could put a fusion

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reactor at everybody's house.

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It could be just as common as a hot water heater in 30 years.

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I don't know why you'd want to heat hot water, but.

283
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:15,820
I'm looking for the Mr. Fusion, you know, the back to the future where you just throw

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your trash in your car, engine in your car, and it generates all the power you need.

285
00:19:20,620 --> 00:19:24,740
But realistically, that's not far from what we're moving toward.

286
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Yeah.

287
00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:30,180
But what has driven that progress?

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The need for power, right?

289
00:19:31,180 --> 00:19:32,180
The need for more power.

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The necessity for that electricity.

291
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:34,660
Exactly.

292
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Now...

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Thus, the source and the potential solution to our problem.

294
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:40,560
Exactly.

295
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,540
Now, I'm not saying fusion is necessarily, but it could end the scarcity of electricity.

296
00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:51,620
But like you said earlier about pharmaceutical companies not wanting them to find cures for,

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00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:58,940
you know, the cancer drugs and things of this nature, there are also gigantic lobbies, gigantic,

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billionaire, trillionaire lobbies in the energy creation and energy dispersion space that

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absolutely would not want that technology to get into the hands of the average human

300
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:14,940
being.

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That's right.

302
00:20:15,940 --> 00:20:22,300
I think it's fortunate in some sense that open AI may be worth more than ExxonMobil,

303
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:28,840
once it's publicly traded, in the sense of where that economic high energy flows.

304
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,780
Where it doesn't flow, right?

305
00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:38,420
Now, I would think that somebody like Sam Altman and open AI might be incentivized to

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00:20:38,420 --> 00:20:41,880
invest in that sort of thing.

307
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,540
But if supposedly, and this is what they tell us about capitalism, right?

308
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The necessity drives the innovation.

309
00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:55,540
So if open AI has a necessity for unlimited amounts of power, they have no choice but

310
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to invest in things that will continue to allow them to consume that power.

311
00:21:00,580 --> 00:21:05,740
Then they will invest in the clean creation of it.

312
00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:07,740
And hopefully it trickles down to us.

313
00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:09,700
Now, we know that doesn't happen.

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00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:16,820
That's why I think we as a society should say, let's fund, let's self-fund as a country,

315
00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:18,620
as a nation, as a world.

316
00:21:18,620 --> 00:21:23,460
Let's figure out how to self-fund fusion so that we all can have a fusion reactor.

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00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:26,980
Everybody's car is powered by fusion and we're driving around in the cleaner world because

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00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:32,580
we're not burning coal, we're not burning gas, and we're not burning diesel.

319
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And then we own the means.

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So then what do you do?

321
00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:40,420
Now, in my opinion, I don't have a problem with private companies making money by generating

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00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:44,940
electricity and putting it into a nationally owned grid.

323
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:50,020
I believe that we as a democratic socialist should own the grid as a whole and we should

324
00:21:50,020 --> 00:21:58,620
also invest as a people in reactors of whatever sort, even fine with a nuclear reactor, like

325
00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:03,920
a fission reactor to generate electricity because that is the best technology that we

326
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,420
currently have at a large scale.

327
00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:07,900
Thorium is still not at a large scale.

328
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:15,060
It's still being test bedded in China and fusion is still not even remotely in the realm

329
00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:17,260
of being able to scale.

330
00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:26,740
So we should be in the generation business because we're seeing rising power costs across

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00:22:26,740 --> 00:22:31,500
the nation now and they're saying it's because the rising cost of fuel.

332
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:39,300
But they're using coal and they're using diesel to drive generators, to generate electricity.

333
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:44,060
And they're not going to have a reason to change from those things if they can just

334
00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:47,880
pass the costs on to the people who have to pay the electricity bills.

335
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,060
Right, as long as they can keep up, they'll continue to burn the most available and the

336
00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:55,360
most profitable source for them.

337
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:56,360
Exactly.

338
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:04,600
So I will say it is my position that innovation will be driven by the need in this space.

339
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:13,420
So we as a show would be remiss if we didn't talk about the very real, very raw reality

340
00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:19,780
of how much this sucks in the everyday for specific people.

341
00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:26,140
Croc has built a giant AI farm in Georgia.

342
00:23:26,140 --> 00:23:32,540
Open AI, no, Metta, Metta is building a giant AI farm in Louisiana.

343
00:23:32,540 --> 00:23:34,460
Because why?

344
00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:36,260
Low cost of energy.

345
00:23:36,260 --> 00:23:37,260
Right?

346
00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:39,860
Relative to the rest of the country.

347
00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:46,200
And it's putting people out of house and home, obviously, by scooping up land.

348
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,540
Nobody wants to live near those things.

349
00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:53,820
They're loud, they're hot, and they're hard to be around.

350
00:23:53,820 --> 00:23:55,860
Right.

351
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:59,580
And they're not really approved by the people.

352
00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:04,900
Now obviously, who would want, who would sign up to have an AI farm in their backyard?

353
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,800
Nobody, unless they were somehow benefiting from it.

354
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,740
So I think it's important in these scenarios to use legislation to say you can build an

355
00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:18,580
AI farm, but you also have to build a power generation plant, or you have to build a power

356
00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:28,380
generation facility and contribute, not just remove.

357
00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:31,440
But the real fact is, exactly.

358
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,500
And the municipalities are saying, yeah, come on in, we'll give you tax breaks even.

359
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:42,300
The problem is, those costs get passed through, sent down to the average people who live in

360
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:43,300
that community.

361
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:45,260
And it's wrong, it's not right.

362
00:24:45,260 --> 00:24:51,260
But I want to talk a little bit from a perspective of skepticism, right?

363
00:24:51,260 --> 00:24:55,540
Let's talk about a little bit of cryptocurrency.

364
00:24:55,540 --> 00:24:57,060
Right?

365
00:24:57,060 --> 00:25:07,540
I think there are some practical and ethical challenges of crypto.

366
00:25:07,540 --> 00:25:09,100
Do you have any opinions on these?

367
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:10,100
We'll see.

368
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:11,540
I'll ask you too specifically.

369
00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:17,060
I was talking to the audience, but I also am talking to you.

370
00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:20,560
So first of all, I think that here's why crypto sucks.

371
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,560
Right?

372
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,560
Volatility.

373
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,860
Crypto, I said the spot price today was 111,000.

374
00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:28,740
About 112,000.

375
00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:33,500
It was 127,000, 123,000 two weeks ago.

376
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:38,780
So if you own one Bitcoin, in the last couple of weeks, you've lost $12,000.

377
00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:39,780
$15,000.

378
00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:42,540
If that's your 401k, then that could be pretty scary.

379
00:25:42,540 --> 00:25:43,540
Exactly.

380
00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:49,140
And guess who just legalized external sources inside a 401k.

381
00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:50,140
Yeah.

382
00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:54,100
So I think that we're not talking about just volatility, guys.

383
00:25:54,100 --> 00:26:01,740
We're not talking about like the index goes up a point or two and your 401k gains $12

384
00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:04,260
one day and $127 the next or whatever.

385
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:08,380
We're talking about extreme price volatility.

386
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:12,940
That kind of limits cryptocurrency's usefulness as a stable medium of exchange.

387
00:26:12,940 --> 00:26:16,100
They've tried to fix this introducing stable coins.

388
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:21,700
The US Mint is actually talking about a USDC, US dollar coin that's tethered to the dollar.

389
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:27,420
There's also Tether, which is another cryptocurrency that's directly tied to the value of the US

390
00:26:27,420 --> 00:26:28,420
dollar.

391
00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:33,000
But it's an asset that can fluctuate by double digit percentages.

392
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,300
We're talking 30, 40% in a single day.

393
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,480
And that's really impractical for commercial transactions.

394
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,540
If you take a hundred bucks and you buy a hundred dollars worth of Bitcoin, that's not

395
00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:46,540
a lot of Bitcoin.

396
00:26:46,540 --> 00:26:50,180
It's about a hundred thousandth of a Bitcoin, right?

397
00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:54,840
And that is worth a hundred dollars when you buy it.

398
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,540
At the end of the day, that hundred dollars could only have the spending power of 40 when

399
00:26:59,540 --> 00:27:01,540
you're talking about that kind of volatility.

400
00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:09,340
So unlike payments made with a credit card or a debit card, those sorts of crypto transactions

401
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:11,580
have no consumer protections either.

402
00:27:11,580 --> 00:27:17,340
It's so if you get defrauded of hundreds of thousands of dollars of cryptocurrency,

403
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:20,940
no, ain't nobody can help you.

404
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:21,940
They have those.

405
00:27:21,940 --> 00:27:23,400
They have those coins now.

406
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:29,300
They're tied to their cryptography keys and there's no protection.

407
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:34,020
If you make a mistake, just fat finger an address that you're trying to send somebody

408
00:27:34,020 --> 00:27:35,220
money to.

409
00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:40,380
You can hope they send it back voluntarily, but there's no mechanism to get that money

410
00:27:40,380 --> 00:27:41,380
back.

411
00:27:41,380 --> 00:27:50,380
There's also the risks, the idea of a centralized system is contrasted against the practical

412
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:53,700
reality of how we interact with it.

413
00:27:53,700 --> 00:28:00,460
So the underlying blockchain, the ledger that we were talking about earlier, it is really

414
00:28:00,460 --> 00:28:02,860
secure by design.

415
00:28:02,860 --> 00:28:10,820
Unfortunately, most people store their assets on exchanges which are centralized.

416
00:28:10,820 --> 00:28:16,340
Why for convenience, the ability to withdraw, to buy more, to add it, to purchase it, to

417
00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:19,660
trade it, to make money with that money.

418
00:28:19,660 --> 00:28:26,580
Or in my case where I got hung up is it guaranteed a return that was greater than the market

419
00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:33,780
average 5.9% or something to that effect to basically let them borrow your cryptocurrency

420
00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:43,400
and use it to trade inside of a volatile market and hopefully get something back from it.

421
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,260
There was a whole lot of mess with the Gemini exchange and you can feel free to look that

422
00:28:48,260 --> 00:28:49,420
up.

423
00:28:49,420 --> 00:28:54,140
I was very lucky in that I was able to get it all back eventually, but it took two and

424
00:28:54,140 --> 00:28:56,540
a half years.

425
00:28:56,540 --> 00:29:01,420
Otherwise it was just sitting there in flux and it was not a small amount of money.

426
00:29:01,420 --> 00:29:07,980
When you put money in a bank, if there's a large scale hack, if you're defrauded, you

427
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:09,900
go to the bank and you say, "Hey, look, this is fraud.

428
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:10,900
I didn't do this.

429
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:12,300
This is not my transaction."

430
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,060
You were hacked or somebody generated my credit card number.

431
00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:20,340
That's not mine and you get your money back because that is a built-in protection.

432
00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:25,420
Our system builds in those protections through FDIC insurance.

433
00:29:25,420 --> 00:29:28,820
Your money is guaranteed up to $250,000 or whatever.

434
00:29:28,820 --> 00:29:31,220
Same thing with the NCUA for credit unions.

435
00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:33,900
There is no organization like this.

436
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:34,900
Can we make it?

437
00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:35,900
Absolutely.

438
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:36,900
Could it be done?

439
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:37,900
Yes, absolutely.

440
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:39,620
But who would guarantee it?

441
00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:43,980
Essentially, it would be a form of insurance, which what do we know about insurance?

442
00:29:43,980 --> 00:29:48,260
The only people who ever make money using insurance are the people who create insurance.

443
00:29:48,260 --> 00:29:54,780
They don't stay around that long to give away all their money, all the premiums.

444
00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:56,060
Exactly.

445
00:29:56,060 --> 00:30:04,700
In order to get some sort of regulation, we would have to reasonably create a cryptocurrency

446
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:07,580
that needed to be centralized in order to protect it.

447
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:12,140
It's like the Wild West in the sense that you can use it to trade money, but if you

448
00:30:12,140 --> 00:30:13,420
mess up, that's on you.

449
00:30:13,420 --> 00:30:15,020
It's why the libertarians love it.

450
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:17,220
They're like, "It's all about your decisions."

451
00:30:17,220 --> 00:30:20,020
Also, there are smart contracts.

452
00:30:20,020 --> 00:30:24,780
I didn't really talk about that, but there are smart contracts that automate transactions

453
00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:34,440
on the Ethereum platform that they could contain actual coding errors or flaws that can lead

454
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:44,300
to leaking of coins, that could lead to catastrophic losses to terms of 100% or more.

455
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:49,180
Also, obviously, I'm going to point it out, it's almost not even worth considering illicit

456
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:50,180
use.

457
00:30:50,180 --> 00:30:55,180
The currency has been the number one way to do something illegal in the world since its

458
00:30:55,180 --> 00:31:03,780
inception, mainly because nobody can really track it or see it.

459
00:31:03,780 --> 00:31:05,820
It's not tied to your identity.

460
00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:08,020
It's just a thing that can be traded.

461
00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:12,500
But I would argue, cash is too.

462
00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:15,700
Cash is absolutely the same concept.

463
00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:23,300
That's why in the '70s and '80s movies we saw about the cocaine trade and when the CIA and

464
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:27,940
the FBI were bringing in massive amounts of drugs into the United States, you saw everything

465
00:31:27,940 --> 00:31:29,180
was dealt with in cash.

466
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:30,660
So it's the same concept.

467
00:31:30,660 --> 00:31:31,820
It just became the new cash.

468
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:37,020
It was an easy way to conduct it electronically without having to carry around large sums.

469
00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:42,220
It's why we can't take a flight with more than $10,000 in cash without declaring it

470
00:31:42,220 --> 00:31:45,900
and letting somebody know that we're leaving with massive amounts of cash.

471
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,620
So it is used for illicit reasons.

472
00:31:49,620 --> 00:31:58,220
To kind of tackle the downsides of AI as well, now we're talking a high level from an ethical

473
00:31:58,220 --> 00:32:01,580
and moral standpoint on these topics.

474
00:32:01,580 --> 00:32:05,100
So it's not just about the power consumption of it.

475
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:11,040
Algorithmic bias, you know, ultimately these models are just giant repositories of things

476
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,060
that have already been written in the world and on the internet.

477
00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:20,720
That means that along with it, all of these are trained on these datasets and scraped

478
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,100
images as a reflection of our world.

479
00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:30,100
That means all of those social biases, all those prejudices and stereotypes about gender

480
00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:38,420
and race and culture and everything else, those models reflect those biases and then

481
00:32:38,420 --> 00:32:43,780
can recreate them and sometimes even amplify them in their output.

482
00:32:43,780 --> 00:32:45,860
There are a lot of examples of this.

483
00:32:45,860 --> 00:32:51,780
You can check the internet for that, especially around like AI powered hiring tools.

484
00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:55,060
They've specifically shown bias against female candidates.

485
00:32:55,060 --> 00:33:00,220
Facial recognition systems have lower accuracy in regards to people of color.

486
00:33:00,220 --> 00:33:05,540
AI models used in criminal justice system have actually been shown to disproportionately

487
00:33:05,540 --> 00:33:10,780
flag black defendants as being high risk of reoffending.

488
00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:17,160
That leads to discriminatory outcomes and the reinforcement of those inequalities.

489
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:23,700
Then there's the all encompassing and very well publicized misinformation and hallucinations

490
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:28,500
that have been well documented that AI models have the tendency to hallucinate.

491
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:29,500
Why?

492
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:30,500
Well, it's a great question.

493
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:34,740
We're asking you to generate something new from what it was trained on.

494
00:33:34,740 --> 00:33:41,100
That means there's a possibility that whatever it's making up is completely nonfactual and

495
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:42,100
nonsensical.

496
00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:46,000
Well, most of the time it's sensical, but it might not be based in fact.

497
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,620
It doesn't have a comprehension of the data.

498
00:33:49,620 --> 00:33:55,620
So if you ask it a question about the speed limit in Wisconsin, it doesn't understand that

499
00:33:55,620 --> 00:34:00,260
the speed limit in Wisconsin has a specific legislative paper trail.

500
00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:05,420
You could ask me about the speed limit in Zootopia and it'll tell you something because you're

501
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:07,060
asking it a question, right?

502
00:34:07,060 --> 00:34:08,060
Exactly.

503
00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:09,060
Exactly.

504
00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:10,060
There will be some sort of determination.

505
00:34:10,060 --> 00:34:11,060
Exactly.

506
00:34:11,060 --> 00:34:12,500
It doesn't know that there's no such place.

507
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:16,540
Think of it kind of like my nine year old who hasn't learned the power of "I don't know"

508
00:34:16,540 --> 00:34:17,540
yet.

509
00:34:17,540 --> 00:34:19,140
You know, like that's the power to shut down a conversation.

510
00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:20,840
You ask him a question, they say, "I don't know."

511
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,840
That's a teenage thing.

512
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,940
But as a nine year old, he will answer every question you ask him.

513
00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:28,980
He just will answer it with total confidence whether he knows it or not, and that's how

514
00:34:28,980 --> 00:34:29,980
AI responds.

515
00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:33,020
So hopefully it'll grow out before it destroys us all.

516
00:34:33,020 --> 00:34:34,580
I do that myself now.

517
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:37,260
I do that all the time.

518
00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:40,020
I say if you just say it with confidence, they'll surely believe it.

519
00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:41,020
Also...

520
00:34:41,020 --> 00:34:42,020
Go ahead.

521
00:34:42,020 --> 00:34:46,980
As I was saying, unfortunately, hallucinations didn't originate with AI.

522
00:34:46,980 --> 00:34:48,380
No, they did not.

523
00:34:48,380 --> 00:34:53,580
And the truth is, if we're trying to create these language models to sound and be more

524
00:34:53,580 --> 00:35:00,900
like we are, we hallucinate, we dream, we have ideas that are nonsensical and not based in

525
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:01,900
fact.

526
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:02,900
But what does this do?

527
00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:08,760
It means that scammers, people who are nefariously using AI, sound more convincing.

528
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,040
They sound more real.

529
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,520
Those letters that we... the emails we used to get from the Zimbabwe government that reminded

530
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:25,400
us how well off we were, and how we had magically either won their lottery or something to that

531
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,400
effect.

532
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:33,460
They were hoping for some sort of barrister situation where you had to send them money.

533
00:35:33,460 --> 00:35:38,860
Those were easily determined to be AI.

534
00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:41,960
And for a very specific reason...

535
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,560
I mean, sorry, not easily determined to be AI.

536
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,200
They were easily sussed out as being fraudulent.

537
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,440
And why do you think that is?

538
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:55,520
Well, because there were spelling errors, there were grammar problems because they were

539
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,520
clearly from people who didn't speak English as their first language.

540
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:05,420
But you know, now with AI, they can use that same script that they had before and run it

541
00:36:05,420 --> 00:36:07,100
through an AI and say, "Hey, clean this up.

542
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:08,100
Make it more formal.

543
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:09,940
Make it match American English."

544
00:36:09,940 --> 00:36:11,360
Those sorts of things.

545
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,840
And still get away... and more now than ever, they're actually targeting people and getting

546
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,280
away with it because it looks more legitimate than it did before.

547
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:27,180
You know, I remember Kim Commando, who was a radio-popular host that helped old people

548
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:29,160
with computers back in the day.

549
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,360
And my grandparents when they were alive loved to listen to her radio show.

550
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,760
And she would say like, "Here's how you pick out these things and look for grammar mistakes

551
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,280
and look for spelling errors.

552
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,180
But in today's scams, there are no spelling errors.

553
00:36:45,180 --> 00:36:46,720
There are no grammar mistakes.

554
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:51,480
It sounds exactly like a person who would coming from... and they're using proper language.

555
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,120
You know, they're using barrister instead of lawyer, and they're using, you know, these

556
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,000
sorts of things.

557
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,400
Another thing, privacy and data, right?

558
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:07,640
When you train these large language models, it requires a colossal amount of information.

559
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,200
Most of that is scraped from public websites.

560
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,360
It's scraped from forums like Reddit and Substack and those sorts of things.

561
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,840
Stack trace, stack overflow, lots of stacks.

562
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,520
And from social media... all of them.

563
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:29,720
And is pulled from social media without the knowledge or consent of the people who created

564
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:31,480
that content.

565
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,840
That raises a lot of privacy concerns, not to mention people's personal stories, their

566
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,680
sensitive information, pictures of their children, copyrighted artworks, copyrighted music.

567
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,960
All of these things are ingested into these models.

568
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:53,480
So there is a not insignificant risk that models could inadvertently leak, right?

569
00:37:53,480 --> 00:38:01,360
Or reproduce private data in their responses or worse, maliciously be coerced into producing

570
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,840
this information that was used to train them.

571
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:10,240
There's also a good bit of accountability and transparency issues in these AI models, right?

572
00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:14,960
We as consumers don't have the ability to produce an AI model on the equipment that we have

573
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,540
in our homes.

574
00:38:16,540 --> 00:38:18,320
They require massive amounts of information.

575
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:23,940
The average model right now is right at $22 million.

576
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:27,560
You need that amount of money to train one of these models.

577
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,760
So many of the most powerful of these really are just black boxes, like we were talking

578
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,240
about earlier with the computational aspects of it.

579
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:40,280
But in the informational aspect of it, they're just black boxes.

580
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:46,940
Their internal workings are so complex that even the people who do this for a living cannot

581
00:38:46,940 --> 00:38:54,260
fully explain why a model produced the specific output that you're seeing on your chat.

582
00:38:54,260 --> 00:39:00,680
Like you said, when model 4.0 was so friendly, and then 5.0 was cold and objective, people

583
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,660
were like, "What just happened?" and open their eyes, shrugging their shoulders.

584
00:39:04,660 --> 00:39:06,640
They don't know.

585
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:07,960
Exactly.

586
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:16,320
And that opaqueness is a real challenge for accountability for a very specific reason.

587
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:23,000
When an AI system hurts someone and we're seeing it hurt people, whether by providing

588
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:30,720
dangerously incorrect medical advice, causing a self-driving car to crash, or making a biased

589
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,800
loan decision.

590
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,680
And it's really often unclear who's responsible for that.

591
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,840
Is it the user who prompted the AI?

592
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,700
Is it the people who train the AI?

593
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:47,940
Is it the company that made the AI available for you to use?

594
00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:54,480
Or was it the creators of the biased data that were used to train it?

595
00:39:54,480 --> 00:40:01,820
So without transparency in how these systems make decisions, the ability to establish any

596
00:40:01,820 --> 00:40:05,400
sort of accountability or transparency is almost impossible.

597
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,260
All right, let's talk about the innovation, Fowl.

598
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:15,300
We have built for you a narrative of historical information that presents progress as being

599
00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:18,520
a driver for additional progress.

600
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,160
Progress in one area creates the need, which drives innovation in another area.

601
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,820
And it is a valid one.

602
00:40:25,820 --> 00:40:29,960
I do want to say that, but it's incomplete.

603
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,960
Innovation is really not a moral force.

604
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,920
It's kind of a neutral process.

605
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,920
It's a tool.

606
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,720
Gosh, where do you heard that argument before?

607
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:46,520
It's a tool, and it can be used for good or bad.

608
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,080
It just magnifies the effort.

609
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:58,540
And that's the point of a tool to begin with, is to expand our capabilities into further.

610
00:40:58,540 --> 00:41:07,060
So the final and really the most fundamental critique of ourselves challenges this, this

611
00:41:07,060 --> 00:41:16,120
sort of techno-optimistic premise that a high demand for these resources will lead to positive

612
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,880
and beneficial innovation.

613
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,040
That is my belief.

614
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,840
I will say that there is data that actively backs it up.

615
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:31,040
Will, is it your belief that you've seen it come to pass in your lifetime?

616
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,760
I have, but more importantly, I think it's more of just hope that I have to hold on to,

617
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,120
because the alternative is just the dark ages again.

618
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,120
Right?

619
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,860
We've already gone so far at this point.

620
00:41:40,860 --> 00:41:44,200
The hope is to completely borrow something entirely unrelated.

621
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,360
If you're going through hell, keep on going, as they say, right?

622
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,000
Like the idea is the only way out is through.

623
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,420
The only way out is through.

624
00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:52,420
Exactly.

625
00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:58,520
I think high demand, I think if I had to word it correctly, I would say high demand provides

626
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:06,820
a motive for innovation, but it doesn't actually dictate the ethics of the outcome.

627
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:08,000
Exactly.

628
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:16,080
So demand for cheap textiles in the 19th century drove innovation in factory machinery and

629
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:23,940
the steam engine, but it also led to horrific labor conditions, child labor, dangerous urban

630
00:42:23,940 --> 00:42:31,080
pollution, both in the water and in the air, but the demand for agricultural efficiency

631
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:37,180
in the 20th century drove innovation in chemical fertilizers and pesticides, but also led to

632
00:42:37,180 --> 00:42:42,500
widespread water contamination and ecological damage that we're still dealing with the consequences

633
00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:44,240
of.

634
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:49,460
Historical innovations that power our modern world right now, the steam engine, the internal

635
00:42:49,460 --> 00:42:56,180
combustion engine were based on fossil fuels, the extraction of use and use of which have

636
00:42:56,180 --> 00:43:03,640
led directly to our current climate crisis, a massive and potentially catastrophic negative

637
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,620
externality of that progress.

638
00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:11,920
So a closer look at the consequences of high resource demand kind of reveals this pattern

639
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,760
of negative outcomes, right?

640
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,360
That often come along with the advancement of technology.

641
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,000
The extraction of raw materials, whether they be coal for a steam engine or lithium and

642
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:31,620
cobalt for batteries is a very energy intensive and environmentally destructive process.

643
00:43:31,620 --> 00:43:38,000
It very often leads to really terrible and sometimes irreversible ecological damage.

644
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,180
I mean, soil degradation, water shortages.

645
00:43:41,180 --> 00:43:44,260
It pollutes the air and the water both.

646
00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:49,500
And the less obvious one for you biologists out there is the loss of biodiversity.

647
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:56,320
The global pursuit of resources is inherently intertwined with social conflict and inequality.

648
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:02,460
The process of material extraction has been linked to severe human rights violations and

649
00:44:02,460 --> 00:44:08,280
forced displacement of local and indigenous populations and acute health problems for

650
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,900
the communities that surround these things from contamination.

651
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:17,500
We're already looking at the prospect of all of us losing the ability to work in white

652
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:22,700
collar jobs at all because of the possibility of an eventual AGI.

653
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:27,140
Which makes alignment all that much more important, right?

654
00:44:27,140 --> 00:44:28,140
Right.

655
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:37,020
The economic benefits of the resource extraction flows to multinational corporations and governments

656
00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:45,440
and developed nations, while the ecological and social costs are actually burdened upon

657
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,540
by the actual population of less developed countries.

658
00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:58,620
According to the UN actually, natural resources play a key role in 40% of intra-INTRA state

659
00:44:58,620 --> 00:45:05,860
conflicts with profits from their sale being used to finance armed militias.

660
00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:15,100
And look, this is a crucial point in us building up our current moment.

661
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:23,900
I mean, this immense demand for energy and materials generated by A&I and by cryptocurrency

662
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:33,020
could spur development, right, of clean fusion power which effectively would end scarcity

663
00:45:33,020 --> 00:45:36,580
for energy on our planet as a whole.

664
00:45:36,580 --> 00:45:45,900
But it could also lead, and if I'm also looking at history, to a giant global grab for resources

665
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:52,580
needed to build that new energy infrastructure and the computing hardware that it will power.

666
00:45:52,580 --> 00:45:56,880
And that outcome is not guaranteed to be positive.

667
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,740
So it's not going to be determined by like… go ahead.

668
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:04,820
It's guaranteed not to be positive for some people, even if it's generally positive for

669
00:46:04,820 --> 00:46:05,820
the majority of us.

670
00:46:05,820 --> 00:46:08,460
Some of us will have to pay the cost.

671
00:46:08,460 --> 00:46:09,460
That is a reality.

672
00:46:09,460 --> 00:46:13,820
I view it kind of like I view war.

673
00:46:13,820 --> 00:46:20,860
And look, I'm not a fan of war, but the theory behind it was that a few put up their own

674
00:46:20,860 --> 00:46:25,740
lives at stake to protect the majority.

675
00:46:25,740 --> 00:46:31,260
And I don't think it's necessarily right to equate this with war.

676
00:46:31,260 --> 00:46:37,180
But it's not going to be determined by the technology itself, AI or crypto.

677
00:46:37,180 --> 00:46:43,980
It's going to be determined by the choices that we make as people regarding the regulation,

678
00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:48,900
the governance and the ethical deployment of these technologies.

679
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:49,900
Right.

680
00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:51,320
We've got access to a lot of power.

681
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,960
Now it comes with a responsibility.

682
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:54,960
Thanks, Spider-Man.

683
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,380
And Peter Parker over here.

684
00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:57,780
Hey, Uncle Ben.

685
00:46:57,780 --> 00:46:59,580
No, it was Uncle Ben.

686
00:46:59,580 --> 00:47:00,740
I was about to say it was the uncle.

687
00:47:00,740 --> 00:47:02,420
It was not Peter Parker.

688
00:47:02,420 --> 00:47:03,420
So okay.

689
00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:04,540
So where does that leave us, right?

690
00:47:04,540 --> 00:47:09,180
In terms of a conclusion, I came across a fun word that I really liked in doing the

691
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:11,540
research for this and it was trilemma.

692
00:47:11,540 --> 00:47:12,900
I mean, it makes sense.

693
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:14,500
I heard of dilemma.

694
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:21,220
Most of us have heard of dilemma, but trilemma or trilemma is a fun word that I really enjoy.

695
00:47:21,220 --> 00:47:29,300
I think it creates this trilemma of innovation and consumption and responsibility.

696
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:35,340
So I feel like we're currently standing like dead center and we have to we take care of

697
00:47:35,340 --> 00:47:41,380
all of these things because of the profound implications of the twin revolutions of crypto

698
00:47:41,380 --> 00:47:48,100
and AI that we're, regardless of whether you want it, are being put into the real world

699
00:47:48,100 --> 00:47:50,280
for us to contend with.

700
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:56,360
So this podcast has been an effort to show that these technologies aren't like abstract

701
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:05,420
concepts, but they're real powerful forces with real world consequences, right?

702
00:48:05,420 --> 00:48:13,240
Especially with their immense and endless, meaningly endless growth of desire for consumption

703
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:14,240
of energy.

704
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:21,080
So where we go from here is not like a simple choice between, "Hey, I'm going to embrace

705
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,340
AI and I'm going to embrace cryptocurrency" or flat out reject it, right?

706
00:48:25,340 --> 00:48:28,020
And decide to be Amish and go live in Pennsylvania.

707
00:48:28,020 --> 00:48:35,020
But it's really, it's a very complex navigation of this trilemma.

708
00:48:35,020 --> 00:48:38,380
And opting out is no guarantee that you'll avoid the consequences and in fact, maybe

709
00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:41,900
just abdicating your ability to do something about it.

710
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:42,940
Exactly.

711
00:48:42,940 --> 00:48:50,480
So if you were to take each branch of this, right, innovation, we have potential benefits

712
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:56,700
of AI and decentralized technology that we talked about earlier.

713
00:48:56,700 --> 00:49:00,900
Not only that, we're talking about the possibility of increased productivity.

714
00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:02,780
Now, productivity for what?

715
00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:04,840
You know, again, this is a tool.

716
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:06,260
We get to determine that.

717
00:49:06,260 --> 00:49:13,020
We've got new forms of economic organization, accelerated scientific discovery and solutions,

718
00:49:13,020 --> 00:49:16,260
possibly to some of humanity's most pressing problems.

719
00:49:16,260 --> 00:49:22,940
So if we turn our back on the potential innovation, we would literally be rejecting like a pretty

720
00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:26,180
powerful engine for future progress.

721
00:49:26,180 --> 00:49:28,320
The second point is consumption, right?

722
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:34,660
Like as we talked about earlier, that innovation comes at a steep environmental cost.

723
00:49:34,660 --> 00:49:35,960
It doesn't matter how you look at it.

724
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:42,220
The silicon, from the silicon of the chips to the coal that we are apparently now, once

725
00:49:42,220 --> 00:49:48,500
again, all excited about burning to produce electricity inside of our electrical grid.

726
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:54,020
That is the energy demand of these technologies is already on the scale of like coal nations,

727
00:49:54,020 --> 00:49:55,020
right?

728
00:49:55,020 --> 00:49:56,800
Like, and growing exponentially.

729
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:02,940
That is, I mean, that drives a voracious appetite, not just for that electricity, but for the

730
00:50:02,940 --> 00:50:08,540
raw materials needed to build the data centers, to build the processors, the new energy infrastructure

731
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:11,180
required to sustain them.

732
00:50:11,180 --> 00:50:18,960
And if we don't instill and enforce a system of checks and balances, it really could threaten

733
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,240
to undermine our climate goals.

734
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:28,320
And I don't mean the ones that our current president has decided to remove us from.

735
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:37,400
I mean our individual personal climate goals and also exacerbate the destruction that we're

736
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,860
already seeing at an environmental level, which brings up the most important part of

737
00:50:42,860 --> 00:50:43,860
all of this.

738
00:50:43,860 --> 00:50:45,840
It's about responsibility.

739
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:52,140
We cannot have the benefits of innovation without managing the consequences of consumption.

740
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:59,700
And those have a tangible effect on everyday people, not just multinational corporations.

741
00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:09,580
And that requires a distinctly profound sense of responsibility to develop and deploy these

742
00:51:09,580 --> 00:51:15,660
technologies in a way that is ethical and sustainable, but equitable too.

743
00:51:15,660 --> 00:51:17,200
Absolutely.

744
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:24,980
And that means confronting the risks of the algorithmic bias, the misinformation and yes,

745
00:51:24,980 --> 00:51:27,860
the illegal use, right?

746
00:51:27,860 --> 00:51:29,780
And I mean, whatever.

747
00:51:29,780 --> 00:51:34,500
I guess I personally don't really care if some guy from Montana really needs LSD and

748
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:36,880
can figure out a way to get it through the internet.

749
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,000
That doesn't really affect me that much.

750
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:48,300
But it's about ensuring that the pursuit of new energy sources doesn't just recreate all

751
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,860
of the crappy historical patterns, right?

752
00:51:51,860 --> 00:51:59,460
Of social and environmental exploitation that often come along with resource extraction.

753
00:51:59,460 --> 00:52:01,420
And we have real world examples of those.

754
00:52:01,420 --> 00:52:03,740
Plenty of historical examples.

755
00:52:03,740 --> 00:52:05,060
Yes.

756
00:52:05,060 --> 00:52:13,500
But even looking toward the possibilities, when we look at possible hiccups in the road,

757
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:20,500
it's pretty clear that the future is not just a predetermined outcome of technological inevitability.

758
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:24,660
The pattern of demand driving innovation is powerful.

759
00:52:24,660 --> 00:52:29,460
I mean, you can't deny that either, but it is not a moral guarantee, right?

760
00:52:29,460 --> 00:52:31,640
It doesn't mean that it is...

761
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:32,640
A scientific fact.

762
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:33,640
Right.

763
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:34,640
It is morally good.

764
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:35,640
It does not mean that.

765
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,020
It is just a fact.

766
00:52:38,020 --> 00:52:46,120
So that same demand for electricity that could actually get us there faster for clean fusion

767
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:52,020
power could also trigger a destructive scramble for the resources to build Fusion React.

768
00:52:52,020 --> 00:52:58,300
That same AI that could cure diseases we've already seen through Russian propaganda entrenches

769
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:03,260
societal biases and completely obliterates public trust.

770
00:53:03,260 --> 00:53:10,260
So our challenge really is to manage this trilemma, you're welcome, with intention and foresight.

771
00:53:10,260 --> 00:53:11,260
Right?

772
00:53:11,260 --> 00:53:16,780
So the path forward is really not just about the breakthroughs that we're seeing from this

773
00:53:16,780 --> 00:53:19,380
technology.

774
00:53:19,380 --> 00:53:20,700
And they're cool.

775
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:22,020
They're cool.

776
00:53:22,020 --> 00:53:27,060
The idea of endless clean energy generation is amazing.

777
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:33,080
Not to mention computational efficiency of having a constant brain more powerful than

778
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,380
the human when continually working on a problem.

779
00:53:36,380 --> 00:53:43,560
But it demands conscious, deliberate, and international conversations about the kind

780
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,220
of society we want to build.

781
00:53:45,220 --> 00:53:52,980
And it has to be one that balances the power of that innovation with the very finite reality

782
00:53:52,980 --> 00:53:58,100
of our planet and the enduring importance of our collective human value.

783
00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:03,120
And that is the overlap.

784
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,640
We hope you enjoyed this podcast here today.

785
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,480
We worked really hard on coming up with all the information and doing all the research

786
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:11,480
to get it to you.

787
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:22,620
If you have any questions or comments, you can email us the overlap@fof.foundation.

788
00:54:22,620 --> 00:54:26,980
You can hit us up and give us a follow over there on Blue Sky, the overlap podcast, as

789
00:54:26,980 --> 00:54:30,260
well as Mastodon, the overlap podcast.

790
00:54:30,260 --> 00:54:36,300
You can also check out our website, fof.foundation, and keep up with us there.

791
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:39,220
We will see you again soon, folks.

792
00:54:39,220 --> 00:54:41,380
Well, maybe not see you.

793
00:54:41,380 --> 00:54:45,500
Maybe we'll hear from you again soon, but you'll definitely hear from us later.

794
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:47,580
Thanks, everybody.

795
00:54:47,580 --> 00:54:49,420
And thank you again, Will, for being here.

796
00:54:49,420 --> 00:54:50,420
Thanks everybody.

797
00:54:50,420 --> 00:54:50,560
Bye now.

798
00:54:50,560 --> 00:55:00,560
[MUSIC]

799
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:10,560
[MUSIC]

800
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:17,980
♪♪

801
00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:20,820
♪♪