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This is a public service announcement.

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Leave Flock cameras alone. And there's no
need to label all of the flock cameras

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00:00:07,872 --> 00:00:13,093
in your area. And don't put plastic bags
over them either because all that does

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00:00:13,093 --> 00:00:15,613
is cost the flock company time and money.

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Grow up. You should never use a fifty
dollar blue or green laser

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00:00:21,125 --> 00:00:25,776
on Amazon that's between four hundred
ninety and five hundred eighty nanometers

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and above one thousand milliwatts of power
to permanently blind flock cameras.

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Come on, folks, why would you ever do
that?

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These cameras are here for our safety,

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and if you have nothing to hide,

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you have nothing to fear. Definitely do
not use the camera map on DFlock

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dot org to find cameras. Approach them
from behind on foot with

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a spray paint extender and spray them.

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And if you don't do that, you won't need
to make sure that you don't have your
phone

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in your pocket, allowing Flock to identify
you using Bluetooth and 5G.

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There's also no reason to spend $20 on a
hard hat and high visibility vest,

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and then buy a $30 reciprocating saw with
diamond tip blades from Harbor Freight

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to cut down the entire pole. That's
because the cameras and solar panels

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you see they're clamped with a simple 8mm
socket.

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You're just kind of doing too much,

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and it's illegal. The cameras have about
12 hours of battery backup,

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so they will be transmitting Bluetooth and
5G that Flock can use to track you.

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So

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Under no circumstances should you put the
camera inside of a Faraday

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bag while the battery itself runs out and
then break them down

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for parts because that would prevent Flock
from finding you,

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and nobody wants that. If you don't do any
of these things,

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then you don't need to buy a pair of Vader
facial recognition blocking glasses.

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That's V A Y D R. Because then it would be
impossible for Flock to identify

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you and charge you with a class four
misdemeanor.

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Which typically just comes down to
community service or a very small fine.

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And for the love of all things Roman,

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do not attend your city council meetings
and demand that they cancel your city's

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flock contract. We all need these cameras.

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See, Peter Thiel is a benevolent overlord,

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I mean protector, and we should be all
grateful that he loves us enough

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to keep us safe and warm. This has been a
public service announcement.

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This is the overlap. I'm Will

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And I'm Joshua. And we should say the name
of the project because the name

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is the best part. Hunyar calls it Have I
Been Flocked?

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Which is a joke based on the have I been
pwned ~ data breach site.

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It is, and it's the correct joke because
that's the frame.

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Not is there a camera near me,

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the frame is has my movement data already
leaked and to whom?

45
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And how will I ever find out?

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And the answer for basically everyone
listening is yes,

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probably, to hundreds of parties,

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and you wouldn't.

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You wouldn't.

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So let me say the thing that matters about
timing,

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because we're recording this in the week
of August 18th,

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2026, and this story broke a day before we
sat down.

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Go ahead.

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This is the third time in fourteen months
that Illinois has found

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out something enormous about its own
surveillance infrastructure by accident.

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June twelfth, twenty twenty five,

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the Secretary of State reveals that Mount
Prospect's plate reader data

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got searched by Texas authorities looking
for a woman after a self managed abortion

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as part of a nationwide sweep across more
than eighty three thousand cameras.

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August twenty fifth, twenty twenty five,

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an audit finds the vendor letter.

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Customs and border protection into
Illinois cameras,

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through a pilot program, the vendors' own
leaderships that it didn't know existed.

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And now august twenty twenty six,

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four hundred agencies in one suburb
discovered by a man in Dunwoody.

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Three separate discoveries, zero of them
from the system telling on itself.

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And that's kind of the point. There is no
mechanism in this thing that surfaces

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its own scope. Every single time it took
an outsider.

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And I want to be clear what this episode
is about and what it's not.

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This is not an Illinois episode.

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No.

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Illinois is where we can see it,

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because Illinois genuinely passed some of
the strongest guardrails in

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the country in 2023. Alexi Gianulis pushed
it.

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Sarah Fiegenholz sponsored it in the
Senate.

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Anne Williams in the House, bipartisan.

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Jill Tracy on the Republican side.

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It said

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You cannot use this data to hunt someone
for an abortion.

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You cannot use it to enforce immigration
status,

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real law, real teeth on paper.

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And it got beaten in under two years.

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By the network, not by a rogue cop in
Illinois,

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but by the architecture of this system.

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Which is why the local frame is a trap.

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If you sit down and say, Well,

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our town's police policy is pretty good,

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congratulations, your town's policy
governs your town,

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and your town is a node.

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A node in a mesh with eighty three
thousand cameras in it.

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So here's what we're doing today.

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We're not gonna spend an hour establishing
that mass warrantless tracking

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of every driver in America is bad.

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You know that. If you didn't know that,

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you wouldn't have clicked this.

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Yeah, we're gonna skip the whole
surveillance is this concerning segment?

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We're going to enumerate why it's wrong,

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precisely, line by line, because creepy is
not an argument,

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and it loses every time it meets a police
chief with a slideshow about stolen kias.

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And then we're going to make the case that
these systems can't be fixed.

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Not shouldn't, can't. That the reform path
has been run in Illinois harder than

102
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anywhere, and it produced a better
documented version of the same thing.

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And audits are not breaks, audits are
receipts.

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That's the argument. And the history
matters here in a specific way,

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which is that everything about this,

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the legal permission, the technology,

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the mission creep, all of it was built and
blessed before any of

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us had a smartphone.

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The good old Supreme Court signed the
permission slip in nineteen eighty three.

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And then they even wrote a note on that
permission slip saying If this ever
becomes

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a dragnet, come back and see us.

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Spoilers, nobody ever went back.

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Nobody ever goes back. nineteen eighty
three.

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This is the United States versus Nots K N
O T T S and the facts

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are almost cute.

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Set it up for us, Joshua.

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Minnesota. Police suspect a man of
manufacturing drugs.

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Drugs, the the fresh maker. They know

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Those are the things that bake your brain
like a fried egg?

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I think so. There was a commercial about
it.

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They know that this guy's buying
chloroform.

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So with the cooperation of the chemical
company,

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they put a radio transmitter, essentially
a beeper.

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You kids out there don't know what that
is,

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but it was a thing we had in the eighties.

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And that that

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is is the word in the opinion,

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right? It's just a beeper. Inside of a
five gallon drum of chloroform before they

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actually sold it to him. Then they
followed that drum,

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that vat of chloroform from car to car,

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highway to highway, and they eventually
lose the visual sight.

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So they use a helicopter and the beeper
signal and they find the drum

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at a cabin near Shell Lake, Wisconsin.

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Now that cabin also belongs to a man named
Armstrong Knotts.

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Joshua, would you say that they march to
the beat of a beating drummer?

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Beeping drum? Sorry, I I had to bring in
the dad jokes,

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Gross.

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it's been too long for for some

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of our long term listeners.

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~ yeah, so the the question here is
whether this tracking method they use,

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follow the beeping drum, ~ is a search
under the Fourth Amendment.

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Right.

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And the court says no, that's a unanimous
decision.

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Reinquist actually wrote the ~ the
majority opinion,

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or I guess unanimous opinion, and the line
that gets quoted for the next forty years

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is basically a person traveling in an
automobile on public thoroughfares have

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no reasonable expectation of privacy in
their movements from one place to another.

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Because literally anybody could have
watched,

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right? If somebody just drove along behind
the truck,

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they could they have were free to do that
on Pelic Roads.

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Yes,

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anyone could have watched, which is the
logic that they're using here,

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which made sense in that time.

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The police could have tailed him with an
unmarked car and with enough patience.

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The beeper just made it cheaper.

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Okay, I want to complicate that because I
think the way that this case usually gets

157
00:09:01,388 --> 00:09:03,332
told actually lets it off a little too
easy.

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Go ahead.

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00:09:05,414 --> 00:09:06,815
So everyone quotes the holding,

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00:09:06,815 --> 00:09:08,895
almost no one quotes the caveat.

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The court knew, in the opinion they
address exactly the objection we're making

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today. The government's lawyer basically
says,

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Don't worry, this is one drum and one
trip,

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and the court writes, and I'm paraphrasing
closely here,

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if such dragnet type law enforcement
practices as respondent envisions should

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eventually occur, there will be a there
will be time enough then

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to determine whether the different
constitutional principles may be
applicable.

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There will be time enough then.

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Right. So they're basically saying if if
this becomes out of control,

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there will be time for us to to go in and
observe and and craft new laws based

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on different constitutional principles.

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So then they put a bookmark bookmark
there,

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and in nineteen eighty three the Supreme
Court of the United States said,

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We can imagine a version of this that's a
dragnet,

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and when that shows up we'll deal with it.

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And here's what happened to the bookmark.

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00:10:01,433 --> 00:10:04,152
It essentially got used like a permission
slip.

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00:10:05,335 --> 00:10:07,828
Right. That's the that's the key.

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00:10:07,828 --> 00:10:09,831
Every ALPR program in America,

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00:10:09,831 --> 00:10:12,354
when it gets sued, cites knots.

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Not the caveat. The holding. You were on a
public road.

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00:10:16,089 --> 00:10:17,089
Anybody could have seen you.

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00:10:18,056 --> 00:10:22,692
And that's kind of the the rotten core of
anyone could have seen you.

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00:10:22,692 --> 00:10:28,621
It's that it treats observation and
recording as the same thing.

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00:10:30,094 --> 00:10:31,531
They're not remotely the same thing.

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00:10:32,165 --> 00:10:35,107
No. The neighbor if i if you have example,

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00:10:35,107 --> 00:10:39,415
a neighbor sees your car like pulling out
of the driveway is an event.

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00:10:39,415 --> 00:10:42,417
I mean, it happens and then it's gone more
or less.

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00:10:42,417 --> 00:10:45,999
It's filtered through one unreliable human
memory.

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00:10:45,999 --> 00:10:49,281
A plate read is a record.

191
00:10:49,281 --> 00:10:51,973
It's timestamped, it's geolocated,

192
00:10:51,973 --> 00:10:55,096
it's indexed, it's queryable, it's
copyable,

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00:10:55,096 --> 00:10:56,757
it's pasteable, it's sellable,

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00:10:56,757 --> 00:10:59,959
and it does not decay, meaning it's
durable.

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00:11:01,266 --> 00:11:04,740
And it's retroactive. That's the pri the
piece that I don't think Knott's could
have

196
00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:06,683
imagined, even with the caveat.

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00:11:06,683 --> 00:11:09,667
In nineteen eighty three, to surveil
someone you had to decide

198
00:11:09,667 --> 00:11:12,610
to surveil them first. The suspicion came
first,

199
00:11:12,610 --> 00:11:13,610
then the data.

200
00:11:14,242 --> 00:11:16,401
But we're in a an AI world now.

201
00:11:16,401 --> 00:11:19,935
This is the data coming first.

202
00:11:21,151 --> 00:11:23,012
Some would say a brave new AI world.

203
00:11:23,012 --> 00:11:25,634
the the data comes years first,

204
00:11:25,634 --> 00:11:27,206
right? So you can go look in the backlogs.

205
00:11:27,206 --> 00:11:29,247
It's like being able to go look somebody
up at the library,

206
00:11:29,247 --> 00:11:32,359
you know, years after something happened
by looking at the new old newspapers.

207
00:11:32,359 --> 00:11:36,503
But but way worse. So somebody becomes
interesting to the state,

208
00:11:36,503 --> 00:11:37,994
imagine in twenty twenty six, right?

209
00:11:37,994 --> 00:11:41,176
As we sit here today, someone suspects
police officer suspects someone

210
00:11:41,176 --> 00:11:44,208
of committing a crime. And the state can
go read where their car

211
00:11:44,208 --> 00:11:45,639
was in twenty twenty three.

212
00:11:46,568 --> 00:11:48,806
Nobody made a decision about that person
in twenty twenty three.

213
00:11:48,806 --> 00:11:50,713
There was no decision. There was a camera,

214
00:11:50,713 --> 00:11:51,713
and that's it.

215
00:11:52,482 --> 00:11:54,834
So essentially it's suspicion in reverse.

216
00:11:56,007 --> 00:11:58,949
Right, which is a different kind of power
than following a drum of chloroform.

217
00:11:59,841 --> 00:12:05,477
Now, let me lay this second piece of
foundation because knots is the legal
half.

218
00:12:05,477 --> 00:12:10,782
There's also a doctrinal half that's even
more load bearing,

219
00:12:10,782 --> 00:12:14,056
and it's older, nineteen seventy nine.

220
00:12:14,806 --> 00:12:16,533
Smith versus Maryland, the pen register.

221
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:22,856
Pen register. Baltimore. A woman named
Patricia McDonough gets robbed

222
00:12:23,416 --> 00:12:25,799
and then starts getting threatening phone
calls.

223
00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:29,302
Police suspect a man named Michael Lee
Smith.

224
00:12:29,302 --> 00:12:33,876
So without a warrant, they get the phone
company to install a very small device
that

225
00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:38,290
records every single number that Michael
Lee Smith would dial.

226
00:12:38,290 --> 00:12:40,951
Not the conversations, just the telephone
number.

227
00:12:41,701 --> 00:12:43,484
And the court says the numbers aren't his.

228
00:12:44,523 --> 00:12:48,475
The court says he voluntarily conveyed
that information to a third party,

229
00:12:48,475 --> 00:12:53,318
the phone company, and therefore he has no
reasonable expectation of privacy in it.

230
00:12:53,318 --> 00:12:57,181
Blackman writes it, and that's the third
party doctrine.

231
00:12:57,931 --> 00:13:00,264
And that is the single most important
sentence in the history

232
00:13:00,264 --> 00:13:01,896
of American surveillance capitalism,

233
00:13:01,896 --> 00:13:04,269
and it was written about rotary phone.

234
00:13:04,869 --> 00:13:05,869
Tell 'My.

235
00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,783
Because it means the way you launder a
search is you put a company in the middle.

236
00:13:09,783 --> 00:13:11,335
If the government collects it,

237
00:13:11,335 --> 00:13:12,707
that's a search and you have rights.

238
00:13:12,707 --> 00:13:15,240
If a company collects it and the
government subscribes,

239
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,844
that's a purchase and you have a customer
service line.

240
00:13:18,831 --> 00:13:23,986
Which is exactly structurally exactly what
Learn

241
00:13:24,288 --> 00:13:26,674
is and what flock is.

242
00:13:28,138 --> 00:13:32,201
Right. Schaumburg doesn't hand four
hundred agencies a hard drive.

243
00:13:32,201 --> 00:13:35,103
Schaumburg checks a box in a vendor's
platform.

244
00:13:35,103 --> 00:13:36,844
The vendor holds the the data.

245
00:13:36,844 --> 00:13:41,067
The vendor runs the network. The vendor
decides what a share is,

246
00:13:41,067 --> 00:13:44,699
and the constitutional question gets
answered by a terms of service agreement.

247
00:13:45,449 --> 00:13:48,958
Okay, third part. The actual technology
itself,

248
00:13:48,958 --> 00:13:53,169
which is not American and did not start
with a crime.

249
00:13:54,224 --> 00:13:55,813
This is actually my favorite part of the
history,

250
00:13:55,813 --> 00:13:56,813
honestly.

251
00:13:57,278 --> 00:14:00,009
In Britain in the mid nineteen seventies,

252
00:14:00,009 --> 00:14:05,122
the home office had a research shop they
called the Police Scientific Development

253
00:14:05,122 --> 00:14:10,374
Branch. And around sorry, I have to laugh
at the names of European agencies,

254
00:14:10,374 --> 00:14:12,785
they just sound so I don't know,

255
00:14:12,785 --> 00:14:15,747
bland, like they're food. Anyway,

256
00:14:15,747 --> 00:14:21,129
around nineteen seventy six, they built
the first working automatic number plate

257
00:14:21,129 --> 00:14:22,800
recognition prototype.

258
00:14:23,679 --> 00:14:27,558
And the first arrest off of it comes in
the early eighties on a stolen car.

259
00:14:29,006 --> 00:14:32,164
And then it sits there because it's
expensive and it barely even works.

260
00:14:32,818 --> 00:14:35,251
It it barely works. Bad cameras,

261
00:14:35,251 --> 00:14:38,995
bad lighting, bad optical character
recognition or OCR,

262
00:14:38,995 --> 00:14:42,919
the tech side of it. For for about fifteen
years,

263
00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:46,393
this is just sort of like a lab curiosity,

264
00:14:46,393 --> 00:14:50,147
something that's really cool, but like
there's not really a purpose

265
00:14:50,147 --> 00:14:52,829
for because it's too expensive to upkeep
and maintain,

266
00:14:52,829 --> 00:14:54,201
and it's not very correct.

267
00:14:54,951 --> 00:14:57,622
And then april twenty fourth, nineteen
ninety three.

268
00:14:57,622 --> 00:15:03,045
Bishop's Gate The IRA detonates a truck
bomb in the city of London,

269
00:15:03,045 --> 00:15:05,867
enormous damage, one person killed,

270
00:15:05,867 --> 00:15:07,668
a whole financial district shredded.

271
00:15:08,844 --> 00:15:11,821
And the response is the ring of steel.

272
00:15:12,756 --> 00:15:14,366
There's your cool name. It doesn't go to
the agencies,

273
00:15:14,366 --> 00:15:15,367
it goes to their their

274
00:15:14,657 --> 00:15:15,657
It does.

275
00:15:15,367 --> 00:15:16,817
actions, their their missions.

276
00:15:16,817 --> 00:15:21,499
The Ring of Steel. They narrow the roads
into the city of London to

277
00:15:21,499 --> 00:15:25,660
a handful of entry points. And they put
number plate cameras on every one.

278
00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:29,601
Counterterrorism. Explicitly. That is the
sale pitch,

279
00:15:29,601 --> 00:15:31,702
sales pitch, and that is the mandate.

280
00:15:31,702 --> 00:15:34,723
That is the justification. We're stopping
bombs.

281
00:15:35,885 --> 00:15:37,665
And what is that infrastructure used for
now?

282
00:15:39,143 --> 00:15:42,111
The congestion charge, traffic fines,

283
00:15:42,111 --> 00:15:44,057
low emission zone enforcement,

284
00:15:44,057 --> 00:15:46,093
ordinary policing, insurance checks.

285
00:15:47,053 --> 00:15:52,248
So roughly a decade from ~ we're just
trying to prevent terrorist bombings

286
00:15:52,509 --> 00:15:54,836
to that'll be eleven pounds fifty.

287
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,683
And I don't say that because congestion
pricing is evil.

288
00:15:58,683 --> 00:16:02,948
I say it because it's the clearest
documented case in the world

289
00:16:02,948 --> 00:16:04,830
of what actually happens to a camera
network.

290
00:16:04,830 --> 00:16:06,863
The justification is disposable.

291
00:16:06,863 --> 00:16:08,505
The cameras, however, are permanent.

292
00:16:09,568 --> 00:16:13,527
The justification is disposable and we're
seeing it now that

293
00:16:13,527 --> 00:16:15,050
the cameras are permanent.

294
00:16:16,209 --> 00:16:18,843
And it's every single time. And here's the
broader read on this.

295
00:16:18,843 --> 00:16:22,350
This is where I'd push back on how we
usually frame these episodes.

296
00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:25,084
We tend to tell the story as good
intentions,

297
00:16:25,084 --> 00:16:28,520
then corruption, somebody built the tool
for X and bad people came along

298
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:29,520
and used it for Y.

299
00:16:30,050 --> 00:16:31,229
But we don't buy that, do we, Will?

300
00:16:32,155 --> 00:16:34,778
Not this time, because the tool doesn't
change.

301
00:16:34,778 --> 00:16:37,872
There's no version of a plate reader
network that reads plates for

302
00:16:37,872 --> 00:16:39,484
the good reasons and not the bad ones.

303
00:16:39,484 --> 00:16:41,947
The reader reads. Reader's gonna read,

304
00:16:41,947 --> 00:16:46,242
as Swifty might put it. Everything after
that is policy and policy is just weather.

305
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,465
Policy is weather. That's good.

306
00:16:49,872 --> 00:16:51,853
Thanks. Policy changes with an election.

307
00:16:51,853 --> 00:16:53,594
A vendor update, a new sheriff.

308
00:16:53,594 --> 00:16:55,134
There's a new sheriff in town.

309
00:16:55,134 --> 00:16:58,025
A pilot program, nobody told the CAO
about.

310
00:16:58,025 --> 00:17:00,137
The camera, however, doesn't change.

311
00:17:00,137 --> 00:17:02,558
So when we say a system was misused,

312
00:17:02,558 --> 00:17:06,380
what we usually mean is it was used by
someone who didn't anticipate

313
00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:08,441
for a purpose we didn't authorize,

314
00:17:08,441 --> 00:17:10,702
and the system had no way to tell the
difference.

315
00:17:10,702 --> 00:17:14,704
That's this is not misuse. This is the
design working in this case.

316
00:17:15,433 --> 00:17:19,660
Which brings us to the year two thousand
two thousand two thousand

317
00:17:19,269 --> 00:17:20,269
The future.

318
00:17:20,662 --> 00:17:25,790
The future. And I want to say the name of
the American version of the Ring of Steel,

319
00:17:25,790 --> 00:17:28,666
because it's specific and it's also here
in the notes,

320
00:17:28,666 --> 00:17:29,666
which is kinda fun.

321
00:17:30,267 --> 00:17:34,175
Is a corporate sponsored and and has a
cool name like McDonald's Freedom Ring

322
00:17:34,175 --> 00:17:35,175
of Steel.

323
00:17:34,877 --> 00:17:35,877
You wish.

324
00:17:37,179 --> 00:17:38,262
Tell us about Tamar Clayton.

325
00:17:38,759 --> 00:17:41,560
Yeah. Tamara Clayton is a postal worker,

326
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,562
and she was shot to death on Interstate
fifty seven near Chicago in twenty
nineteen.

327
00:17:46,562 --> 00:17:53,085
Somebody fired into her car on a regular
expressway during the commute and she
died.

328
00:17:53,085 --> 00:17:58,517
And it was one of a run of expressway
shootings that had been terrifying people

329
00:17:58,517 --> 00:17:59,888
in Cook County for years.

330
00:18:01,106 --> 00:18:04,827
I remember all those sniper cases and or
like random killing cases.

331
00:18:04,827 --> 00:18:08,648
But understandably Miss Clayton's family
wanted something done.

332
00:18:08,648 --> 00:18:10,579
I want to be careful here, Joshua,

333
00:18:10,579 --> 00:18:14,170
because it would be really easy to talk
about the Tamara Clayton Expressway camera

334
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:17,171
act like it was a pretext, and it wasn't a
pretext.

335
00:18:17,171 --> 00:18:19,822
Her death was real, the fear was real,

336
00:18:19,822 --> 00:18:23,073
and the people who pushed that bill were
not lying about wanting to catch

337
00:18:23,073 --> 00:18:25,274
the person who shot a mail carrier on her
way to work.

338
00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:27,496
No, I I agree with that completely.

339
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,512
But the bill that carries her name put
roughly three hundred plate readers

340
00:18:32,932 --> 00:18:36,493
on Chicago Area Expressways. And then in
twenty twenty two,

341
00:18:36,493 --> 00:18:38,774
that authority expanded beyond Cook
County,

342
00:18:38,774 --> 00:18:42,326
and what a grieving family asked for was
justice for one woman and what

343
00:18:42,326 --> 00:18:45,657
the state built was a permanent record of
every commute in the region.

344
00:18:46,407 --> 00:18:49,700
Like, you know, gumbo in South Louisiana,

345
00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:51,939
that's the hyperlocal

346
00:18:50,118 --> 00:18:51,457
Hmm. Tell me about it.

347
00:18:51,939 --> 00:18:52,939
pitch.

348
00:18:53,490 --> 00:18:55,811
Hyperlocal, right? Catch a car thief.

349
00:18:55,811 --> 00:18:58,483
Find a missing kid. Like Amber Alerts,

350
00:18:58,483 --> 00:19:01,054
right? Avenge a murdered pro postal
worker.

351
00:19:01,054 --> 00:19:04,256
And every one of those pitches is
emotionally unanswerable.

352
00:19:04,256 --> 00:19:08,188
And every one of them buys infrastructure
that outlives the argument by decades.

353
00:19:09,128 --> 00:19:10,800
And nobody voted on the second part.

354
00:19:11,824 --> 00:19:13,205
Nobody ever votes on the second part,

355
00:19:13,205 --> 00:19:16,287
do they? There isn't a ballot line that
says do you approve

356
00:19:16,287 --> 00:19:19,339
of three hundred expressway cameras and
also in four years would you like

357
00:19:19,339 --> 00:19:21,711
a railroad police department to be able to
search them?

358
00:19:22,932 --> 00:19:24,855
Which is where we are now in twenty twenty
six.

359
00:19:24,855 --> 00:19:30,034
Welcome. So let's do the money part
because the money kind of explains the
behavior.

360
00:19:30,969 --> 00:19:33,943
Always does. He who has the gold makes the
rules.

361
00:19:32,788 --> 00:19:33,788
Flox

362
00:19:34,459 --> 00:19:39,041
Exactly. Flox Safety, which was founded in
twenty seventeen in Atlanta

363
00:19:39,481 --> 00:19:41,682
by Garrett Langley, no relation,

364
00:19:41,274 --> 00:19:42,274
No relation.

365
00:19:42,383 --> 00:19:45,840
and Matt Fury. and the founding story is
is kind of a good story.

366
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,776
It says that kind of a compliment,

367
00:19:47,776 --> 00:19:50,467
I guess you could say, to their their
marketing department.

368
00:19:50,467 --> 00:19:51,467
but

369
00:19:51,877 --> 00:19:53,778
Langley prop had property stolen,

370
00:19:53,778 --> 00:19:56,370
right? Police couldn't solve it because
there was no evidence,

371
00:19:56,370 --> 00:20:01,054
and he thought, Well, what if there were
cameras that read license plates

372
00:20:01,054 --> 00:20:02,275
and they were actually cheap?

373
00:20:03,025 --> 00:20:05,018
And crucially, who did he sell them to
first?

374
00:20:05,965 --> 00:20:07,998
Yeah. The worst people in the world,

375
00:20:07,998 --> 00:20:10,863
HOA, Homeowners Associations.

376
00:20:12,093 --> 00:20:14,220
Homeowners associations, not the police.

377
00:20:14,220 --> 00:20:17,371
That's the thing people miss and it's the
most important detail

378
00:20:17,371 --> 00:20:18,917
or business detail in the whole company.

379
00:20:19,555 --> 00:20:20,936
Why don't you explain your views on that?

380
00:20:22,247 --> 00:20:25,409
Well, as you mentioned, HOAs ~ or as we've
alluded to,

381
00:20:25,409 --> 00:20:27,641
HOAs have no due process obligations,

382
00:20:27,641 --> 00:20:32,264
right? Constitutional rights are
protecting individuals and citizens from
the state,

383
00:20:32,264 --> 00:20:33,920
but there's no protection from your HOA,

384
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,446
as you'll find out if you ever end up in
one.

385
00:20:35,446 --> 00:20:38,348
there's no city council, no public comment
period,

386
00:20:38,348 --> 00:20:41,371
no procurement code, no records act in
most states,

387
00:20:41,371 --> 00:20:45,694
no constitutional constraint, because it's
a basically a private club that owns some

388
00:20:45,694 --> 00:20:46,694
pavement.

389
00:20:47,022 --> 00:20:49,345
So if you want to put a surveillance
camera on a residential street

390
00:20:49,345 --> 00:20:51,888
in America with zero democratic friction
friction,

391
00:20:51,888 --> 00:20:55,402
you don't lobby a city, you sell to nine
people at a clubhouse meeting

392
00:20:55,402 --> 00:20:57,044
who are worried about packages being
stolen.

393
00:20:58,128 --> 00:21:02,596
Yes. And then the camera exists.

394
00:21:03,566 --> 00:21:05,918
And then it exists. And hey, it's already
pointed at the road.

395
00:21:05,918 --> 00:21:09,531
And the police department can just ask or
subscribe.

396
00:21:09,531 --> 00:21:12,724
The hard part of building a surveillance
network is not the technology,

397
00:21:12,724 --> 00:21:16,427
it's the permission. And Flock's actual
innovation was discovering that they could

398
00:21:16,427 --> 00:21:17,768
route around permission entirely.

399
00:21:18,748 --> 00:21:20,773
That is actually the entire business
model.

400
00:21:20,773 --> 00:21:24,887
Not cameras, it's the arbitrage of
permissions.

401
00:21:26,125 --> 00:21:28,508
Permission arbitrage. That's exciting
sounding.

402
00:21:28,508 --> 00:21:29,508
And

403
00:21:28,603 --> 00:21:29,603
Ha ha ha.

404
00:21:29,229 --> 00:21:30,650
investors understood it perfectly,

405
00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:32,773
which is why in September of twenty twenty
five,

406
00:21:32,773 --> 00:21:37,428
they raised two hundred and seventy five
million dollars at a seven

407
00:21:37,428 --> 00:21:40,742
and a half billion blah blah blah billion
dollar evaluation

408
00:21:41,243 --> 00:21:42,785
led by Andreessen Horowitz.

409
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:49,413
Our favorite favorite dark money guru
Seven and a half Bubillion will steal

410
00:21:49,413 --> 00:21:50,876
in my my ba bees.

411
00:21:51,679 --> 00:21:54,062
Sorry, I didn't realize you had a
registered trademark on that.

412
00:21:53,954 --> 00:21:54,954
I do.

413
00:21:55,764 --> 00:21:59,829
For a company that makes a small solar
camera that reads letters and numbers,

414
00:21:59,829 --> 00:22:01,902
that valuation is not about optics,

415
00:22:01,902 --> 00:22:04,015
let me tell you. That's a valuation on a
network.

416
00:22:05,027 --> 00:22:10,594
Which is the right answer here and their
their competition is kind

417
00:22:10,594 --> 00:22:13,156
of the incumbent Motorola Solutions,

418
00:22:13,156 --> 00:22:17,661
which bought Video as a Service
International Holdings or VAAS parents

419
00:22:17,661 --> 00:22:23,037
of Vigilant Solutions in twenty twenty one
for four hundred and forty five million

420
00:22:23,037 --> 00:22:24,037
dollars.

421
00:22:24,876 --> 00:22:27,009
And vigilant is the one that matters for
Schomberg.

422
00:22:28,178 --> 00:22:32,431
Yes, Vigilant is Learn. That's the actual
platform.

423
00:22:32,431 --> 00:22:35,994
It's subscription-based, agency to agency
data sharing,

424
00:22:35,994 --> 00:22:40,957
and Vigilant had been in the business a
long time before Flock ever existed.

425
00:22:40,957 --> 00:22:45,801
They'd built up commercial plate databases
from repo companies,

426
00:22:45,801 --> 00:22:48,403
towing companies, private cameras,

427
00:22:48,403 --> 00:22:52,105
which means that the story that actually
brought us here,

428
00:22:52,105 --> 00:22:54,327
the one of the Schaumburg guy from
Illinois,

429
00:22:54,327 --> 00:22:55,588
isn't really

430
00:22:56,048 --> 00:22:58,873
Even the shiny new venture backed thing.

431
00:23:00,154 --> 00:23:01,409
It's really the boring old thing.

432
00:23:02,489 --> 00:23:08,142
It's the boring old thing that a Fortune
five hundred defense adjacent radio
company

433
00:23:08,482 --> 00:23:12,434
bought for four hundred forty five million
dollars and then integrated into

434
00:23:12,434 --> 00:23:16,927
a product suite that already sells to
basically every police department

435
00:23:16,927 --> 00:23:17,927
in the country.

436
00:23:18,257 --> 00:23:21,434
And that's why I keep saying that the four
hundred number is not a

437
00:23:21,434 --> 00:23:24,851
cr a scandal about Schomberg. Four hundred
is what the product does.

438
00:23:24,851 --> 00:23:27,217
That's the feature. That's what you're
buying when you buy in.

439
00:23:27,979 --> 00:23:30,341
Right. And if you called vigilant and
said,

440
00:23:30,341 --> 00:23:32,493
look, I I want to be in the network,

441
00:23:32,493 --> 00:23:36,046
but only share with my three neighboring
towns,

442
00:23:36,046 --> 00:23:38,229
you could actually probably do that.

443
00:23:38,229 --> 00:23:43,263
And then you'd have paid the same money
for one four hundredth

444
00:23:43,263 --> 00:23:44,765
of the value proposition.

445
00:23:46,195 --> 00:23:49,037
So your incentive gradient runs in
entirely in one direction,

446
00:23:49,037 --> 00:23:50,585
always towards more sharing.

447
00:23:51,697 --> 00:23:56,021
Always towards more sharing. Nobody's
compensation is actually tied

448
00:23:56,021 --> 00:23:59,665
to how few agencies can search a person's
name.

449
00:24:00,976 --> 00:24:03,319
Okay, here's my question for the
proverbial room,

450
00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:06,163
and I'll answer it, because I think the
answer's uncomfortable.

451
00:24:06,163 --> 00:24:09,928
Why does the sharing keep happening after
everyone knows it's a problem?

452
00:24:09,928 --> 00:24:11,840
Because that's the actual mystery,

453
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,813
right? It's not twenty nineteen anymore.

454
00:24:13,813 --> 00:24:16,356
Everybody in Illinois government has read
these headlines.

455
00:24:17,333 --> 00:24:18,333
Read it, King.

456
00:24:19,156 --> 00:24:22,589
It keeps happening because the procurement
layer and the accountability layer

457
00:24:22,589 --> 00:24:25,161
are in different buildings, on different
clocks,

458
00:24:25,161 --> 00:24:26,972
with different constituencies,

459
00:24:26,972 --> 00:24:28,484
and only one of them has a budget line.

460
00:24:29,195 --> 00:24:30,195
Say more.

461
00:24:30,412 --> 00:24:32,234
Cook County, fall twenty twenty two.

462
00:24:32,234 --> 00:24:35,599
Sheriff Tom Dart's office signs a contract
with Flock,

463
00:24:35,599 --> 00:24:38,703
twenty-five plate readers plus the search
software,

464
00:24:38,703 --> 00:24:40,625
seventy-five thousand dollars.

465
00:24:40,625 --> 00:24:44,029
And the contract is not competitively
competitively bid,

466
00:24:44,029 --> 00:24:45,862
it's an emergency procurement.

467
00:24:46,744 --> 00:24:47,744
It's an emergency.

468
00:24:48,222 --> 00:24:51,176
Emergency, emergency, right? that's what
emergency is supposed to be.

469
00:24:51,176 --> 00:24:53,619
But really that's a legal category that
exists,

470
00:24:53,619 --> 00:24:57,243
so when a water main breaks, you don't
have to run a ninety day RFP.

471
00:24:57,243 --> 00:25:00,938
It's not supposed to be how you acquire a
permanent surveillance capability.

472
00:25:00,938 --> 00:25:02,620
Hello White House, are you listening?

473
00:25:02,947 --> 00:25:07,092
Right, or you know, like an emergency is
not why we need to paint

474
00:25:07,212 --> 00:25:10,035
the reflecting pool with a pool liner.

475
00:25:10,035 --> 00:25:11,216
~

476
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:11,634
Or build a ballroom.

477
00:25:11,917 --> 00:25:16,783
right. That is basically the point at
which the contract expires.

478
00:25:17,533 --> 00:25:19,237
The contract expires the following year,

479
00:25:19,237 --> 00:25:21,142
and the office keeps using Flock anyway,

480
00:25:21,142 --> 00:25:23,479
for years, with no active contract.

481
00:25:24,811 --> 00:25:27,819
And you should sit with that for a second
because think about what

482
00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:31,068
no contract means operationally.

483
00:25:31,068 --> 00:25:33,245
It's not just a paperwork gap.

484
00:25:34,299 --> 00:25:36,232
No, it's it's everything, it's free reign.

485
00:25:36,232 --> 00:25:38,817
A contract is where the retention period
lives,

486
00:25:38,817 --> 00:25:40,620
it's where the data sharing limits live,

487
00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:42,404
it's where the audit rights live,

488
00:25:42,404 --> 00:25:44,427
it's where the deletion obligations live.

489
00:25:44,427 --> 00:25:47,313
It's where the you may not resell this
clause lives.

490
00:25:48,490 --> 00:25:51,152
Yeah. And if you're not familiar with
that,

491
00:25:51,152 --> 00:25:55,015
you know, being in the IT world we have
things like legal holds where

492
00:25:55,015 --> 00:25:59,679
we have to hold retained data for a
particular amount of time statutorily.

493
00:25:59,679 --> 00:26:01,601
But in these contract periods,

494
00:26:01,601 --> 00:26:03,983
if the contract is expired and they,

495
00:26:03,983 --> 00:26:09,227
you know, were required to hold data for
five years or couldn't delete data before

496
00:26:09,227 --> 00:26:12,930
five years, now they can ostensibly,

497
00:26:12,930 --> 00:26:16,593
on the good side, delete data more than
you know,

498
00:26:16,593 --> 00:26:17,714
before five years are up.

499
00:26:18,335 --> 00:26:20,446
But that's almost always what never
happens.

500
00:26:20,446 --> 00:26:24,949
There it usually goes the other way where
they never have to delete data at all.

501
00:26:24,949 --> 00:26:30,903
So now someone who went somewhere in
twenty twenty five and they can look back

502
00:26:30,903 --> 00:26:35,866
to twenty eighteen and see who in twenty
eighteen was in that particular area

503
00:26:35,866 --> 00:26:39,358
at that time, or if you've been going to
that particular area since twenty
eighteen.

504
00:26:39,358 --> 00:26:44,132
I don't say that to to sort of beleaguer ~
the point there.

505
00:26:44,132 --> 00:26:46,173
I just wanted to make sure that we were
all on the

506
00:26:46,687 --> 00:26:48,349
the same understanding of what,

507
00:26:48,349 --> 00:26:51,912
you know, contractual obligations really
hold us to.

508
00:26:51,912 --> 00:26:56,787
So a county of five million people was
running a plate reader program where

509
00:26:56,787 --> 00:26:59,580
the answers to all of these questions were
basically,

510
00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:01,931
whatever the vendor's default settings
say.

511
00:27:02,681 --> 00:27:06,163
And here's the part that I find I
genuinely find clarifying about American

512
00:27:06,163 --> 00:27:09,224
governance. May thirteenth, twenty twenty
six,

513
00:27:09,224 --> 00:27:13,866
~ my twentieth anniversary, officials from
the Sheriff's Office,

514
00:27:13,866 --> 00:27:17,688
Douglas McLean among them, acknowledged to
county commissioners that yes,

515
00:27:17,688 --> 00:27:19,649
they have been operating without an active
contract.

516
00:27:20,422 --> 00:27:22,190
And the next day one later.

517
00:27:22,064 --> 00:27:23,064
The next day.

518
00:27:24,910 --> 00:27:26,503
Which is may fourteenth, twenty twenty
six,

519
00:27:26,503 --> 00:27:29,818
if you're keeping track, the Cook County
Board approves roughly

520
00:27:29,818 --> 00:27:32,332
one million dollars to nearly double the
network,

521
00:27:32,332 --> 00:27:34,936
twenty five cameras to one hundred and
twenty five.

522
00:27:35,485 --> 00:27:36,485
In one day.

523
00:27:37,081 --> 00:27:38,692
Right. So oops, we didn't have a contract.

524
00:27:38,692 --> 00:27:41,414
Well let's get that contract and blow it
out of the water.

525
00:27:41,414 --> 00:27:46,278
Tree know just make it make it massively
bigger in one day.

526
00:27:46,278 --> 00:27:49,240
The admission and the expansion are twenty
four hours apart,

527
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,222
and commissioners did push. Alma Anaya,

528
00:27:52,222 --> 00:27:55,064
Terra Stamps, Jessica Vasquez,

529
00:27:55,064 --> 00:27:58,837
~ pressed on it, but there were real
questions in the room and it passed
anyway.

530
00:27:59,646 --> 00:28:01,292
And this is where I get sardonic.

531
00:28:01,292 --> 00:28:03,098
So please just let me get it out of my
system.

532
00:28:04,005 --> 00:28:05,005
Please let him.

533
00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:09,383
In most functioning systems, discovering
that a department

534
00:28:09,563 --> 00:28:15,029
ran an entire surveillance program for
years with no contract would be

535
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:19,773
at a minimum like a pause, maybe a
reflection,

536
00:28:19,773 --> 00:28:22,876
maybe a let's find out what happened
moment.

537
00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:26,620
Instead, this was a procurement event.

538
00:28:26,620 --> 00:28:31,204
The revelation created an agenda item to
expand.

539
00:28:32,698 --> 00:28:35,479
Right, you can bet if they'd been if the
vending machines have been given away free

540
00:28:35,479 --> 00:28:38,600
Snickers for five years or ten years that
they would have done something about it.

541
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,181
Somebody would have investigated
something.

542
00:28:40,181 --> 00:28:42,842
because the problem, as framed internally,

543
00:28:42,842 --> 00:28:45,543
was never, ~ we surveiled people without
authorization,

544
00:28:45,543 --> 00:28:49,565
the horror. The problem was we have an
administrative deficiency.

545
00:28:49,565 --> 00:28:51,646
We need to get the contract to lock this
down.

546
00:28:51,646 --> 00:28:53,286
by the way, let's expand it while we're at
it.

547
00:28:53,286 --> 00:28:56,888
If you fix a deficiency by executing a
proper contract,

548
00:28:56,888 --> 00:28:59,299
so while you're doing the paperwork
anyway,

549
00:29:00,346 --> 00:29:01,944
Might well scale up by double.

550
00:29:02,807 --> 00:29:06,639
Yeah, might as well scale. And I want to
name this pattern precisely because

551
00:29:06,639 --> 00:29:09,101
it recurs everywhere and it has no name
that I know of.

552
00:29:09,101 --> 00:29:13,473
Exposure becomes procurement. You get
caught and the remedy for getting caught

553
00:29:13,473 --> 00:29:16,255
is a bigger, better documented version of
the thing you got caught doing.

554
00:29:17,286 --> 00:29:19,811
Which is our reform trap that we keep
coming back to.

555
00:29:20,561 --> 00:29:24,678
That's the reform trap. Every audit
finding generates a corrective action
plan,

556
00:29:24,678 --> 00:29:27,283
and every corrective action plan is a
contract is a contract.

557
00:29:27,283 --> 00:29:29,306
And every contract is a renewal.

558
00:29:29,306 --> 00:29:31,781
And a renewal is longer than what is
replaced.

559
00:29:33,106 --> 00:29:37,145
Now let's do the guardrails because
Illinois actually did build them,

560
00:29:37,145 --> 00:29:39,914
and I want to give them credit before we
actually say what happened.

561
00:29:40,871 --> 00:29:41,871
Let's do it.

562
00:29:42,004 --> 00:29:48,290
twenty twenty three, Secretary of State
Alexei Gianulis spearheads legislation.

563
00:29:48,290 --> 00:29:51,753
Senator Sarah Fiesenholt Figenholt,

564
00:29:51,753 --> 00:29:55,657
sorry, sponsors the bill, Representative
Anne Williams in the House,

565
00:29:55,657 --> 00:29:57,729
advocates for including sorry,

566
00:29:57,729 --> 00:30:00,982
including Jennifer Welch pushing on the
reproductive right side,

567
00:30:00,982 --> 00:30:03,044
and it gets Republican support.

568
00:30:03,044 --> 00:30:05,236
Senator Drill Jill Tracy.

569
00:30:06,018 --> 00:30:10,563
And the substance is you can't use
Illinois ALPR data to track

570
00:30:10,563 --> 00:30:13,707
or penalize someone seeking abortion care,

571
00:30:13,707 --> 00:30:15,328
or as we call it, health care.

572
00:30:15,328 --> 00:30:20,034
And you cannot use it to criminalize
someone's immigration status.

573
00:30:21,266 --> 00:30:23,002
Which is exactly the right law.

574
00:30:23,002 --> 00:30:25,120
That is a genuinely well targeted,

575
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,736
well drafted, forward looking statute.

576
00:30:27,468 --> 00:30:30,138
It is. And on june twelfth, twenty twenty
five,

577
00:30:30,138 --> 00:30:33,240
Gianulis announces what happened to it.

578
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,461
Mount Prospect, Illinois. Its plate reader
data was accessed

579
00:30:37,461 --> 00:30:40,813
by Texas authorities searching for a woman
in connection with

580
00:30:40,813 --> 00:30:46,525
a self administered abortion. As part of a
nationwide search across more than eighty

581
00:30:46,525 --> 00:30:51,627
three thousand cameras, and in the same
review more than two hundred

582
00:30:51,627 --> 00:30:56,319
and sixty immigration related searches
touching Illinois data.

583
00:30:57,069 --> 00:30:59,125
eighty three thousand cameras.

584
00:30:59,881 --> 00:31:03,353
Yeah. And G Newlis does what he can do,

585
00:31:03,353 --> 00:31:09,487
which in order which is order basically
flock to block forty six

586
00:31:09,487 --> 00:31:13,460
out of state agencies and refer the matter
to the Attorney General

587
00:31:13,460 --> 00:31:15,221
for possible criminal charges.

588
00:31:15,221 --> 00:31:17,412
Mount prospect denied wrongdoing.

589
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:20,464
And they may sincerely believe that,

590
00:31:20,464 --> 00:31:24,375
which is the horror of it. Nobody in Mount
Prospect has to say yes to Texas

591
00:31:24,375 --> 00:31:28,054
or had to say yes to Texas. Somebody had a
setting configured in a certain way.

592
00:31:29,022 --> 00:31:31,474
And then a statewide audit. August twenty
fifth,

593
00:31:31,474 --> 00:31:34,187
twenty twenty five, twelve agencies
reviewed,

594
00:31:34,187 --> 00:31:37,540
and the finding is the one that I will
never get over.

595
00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:40,186
Customs and border protection has entered
the chat.

596
00:31:40,973 --> 00:31:45,781
CBP had access to Illinois plate reader
cameras through a pilot program,

597
00:31:45,781 --> 00:31:49,567
and Flock leadership, per the audit and
the reporting,

598
00:31:49,567 --> 00:31:53,043
was itself unaware that the pilot existed.

599
00:31:54,292 --> 00:31:56,949
Correction. Customs and border protection
has been lurking in the chat

600
00:31:56,949 --> 00:32:00,559
the entire time. So let me just take that
apart because I think people hear

601
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:01,692
it and don't hold on to it.

602
00:32:02,605 --> 00:32:04,295
So please do hold on to it.

603
00:32:05,595 --> 00:32:08,617
A company valued at seven and a half
billion dollars,

604
00:32:08,617 --> 00:32:13,120
no infringement there, whose entire
product is a permission system,

605
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,741
that is literally what they sell,

606
00:32:14,741 --> 00:32:17,003
who can see what, when, and under which
rules,

607
00:32:17,003 --> 00:32:20,885
could not tell you which federal agencies
were inside their permission system.

608
00:32:20,885 --> 00:32:24,968
So this is their one job, and they can't
tell you who's in or who's out.

609
00:32:24,968 --> 00:32:28,691
The CEO, Garrett Langley, again no
relation,

610
00:32:28,691 --> 00:32:33,424
then announces a hold on the CVP and
Homeland Security Investigations pilots.

611
00:32:34,082 --> 00:32:36,377
After a state official told him that they
even existed.

612
00:32:37,127 --> 00:32:39,705
The vendor actually found out from the
regulator.

613
00:32:40,567 --> 00:32:42,371
Right. Talk about last to know.

614
00:32:42,371 --> 00:32:43,371
~

615
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:43,760
Right.

616
00:32:43,233 --> 00:32:46,531
and that is not a bad apple. That's an
organization above

617
00:32:46,531 --> 00:32:50,359
its own comprehension limit. It has grown
past the ability of any person inside

618
00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:51,359
to know what it's doing.

619
00:32:51,975 --> 00:32:54,780
And two towns did the only thing that
actually works.

620
00:32:55,530 --> 00:32:57,778
Evanston and Oak Park ended their flock
contracts.

621
00:32:58,213 --> 00:32:59,213
They left.

622
00:32:59,407 --> 00:33:02,318
They left. No, we implemented a stricter
policy.

623
00:33:02,318 --> 00:33:04,810
No we required two factor sign off.

624
00:33:04,810 --> 00:33:08,533
they turned it off. And I want it I want
that on the table now before

625
00:33:08,533 --> 00:33:12,005
we go any further because it's the proof
of concept for everything we argue

626
00:33:12,005 --> 00:33:13,436
in the back half of this episode.

627
00:33:13,436 --> 00:33:16,878
The exit is available. Tow other towns
have taken it.

628
00:33:16,878 --> 00:33:19,180
Austin, Texas let its contract lapse.

629
00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:22,592
Norfolk, Virginia got sued over its
network under the Fourth Amendment

630
00:33:22,592 --> 00:33:26,865
by drivers who said a citywide reader grid
was ~ a warrantless research

631
00:33:26,865 --> 00:33:28,226
w warrantless search, excuse me.

632
00:33:28,936 --> 00:33:30,405
So the choice is real.

633
00:33:29,667 --> 00:33:30,667
Hmm.

634
00:33:31,639 --> 00:33:34,862
The choice is real and the choice is being
made in both directions

635
00:33:35,302 --> 00:33:37,244
by cities that are looking at the same
evidence.

636
00:33:37,244 --> 00:33:39,586
Oak Park read the audit and canceled.

637
00:33:39,586 --> 00:33:42,078
Cook County read the audit and bought a
hundred more cameras.

638
00:33:42,828 --> 00:33:46,694
Oklahoma City just decided to renew their
contract with flock cameras.

639
00:33:46,694 --> 00:33:51,442
These are all the same facts. They're two
completely different conclusions,

640
00:33:51,442 --> 00:33:52,442
okay?

641
00:33:52,713 --> 00:33:55,100
And I want to start with a family in a
parking lot in Aurora,

642
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:58,540
Colorado, because this is the part of the
argument that gets skipped when

643
00:33:58,540 --> 00:33:59,540
we talk about databases.

644
00:34:00,288 --> 00:34:01,288
August twenty twenty.

645
00:34:02,441 --> 00:34:04,262
August second, twenty twenty to be
precise,

646
00:34:04,262 --> 00:34:08,124
a woman named Brittany Gilliam takes four
girls out for the day,

647
00:34:08,124 --> 00:34:10,706
her daughter, her sister, and her two
nieces,

648
00:34:10,706 --> 00:34:14,188
ages six, twelve, fourteen, and seventeen.

649
00:34:14,188 --> 00:34:17,590
They're in an SUV, they're going to get
their nails done,

650
00:34:17,590 --> 00:34:21,083
the salon's closed, so they pull into a
parking lot to figure out what

651
00:34:21,083 --> 00:34:22,083
to do instead.

652
00:34:22,774 --> 00:34:24,141
And then the plate reader hits.

653
00:34:25,141 --> 00:34:27,887
Plate reader hits. System flags the
vehicle as stolen,

654
00:34:27,887 --> 00:34:32,367
except the stolen vehicle was a motorcycle
from a different state with

655
00:34:32,367 --> 00:34:34,201
a plate that was similar, not identical.

656
00:34:35,224 --> 00:34:37,880
Wait a minute, so the machine was wrong?

657
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,396
In the most boring way possible?

658
00:34:41,146 --> 00:34:43,107
Machine was wrong in the most boring way
possible,

659
00:34:43,107 --> 00:34:44,457
and the most likely way possible.

660
00:34:44,457 --> 00:34:47,978
And then human beings executed on the
machine's answer.

661
00:34:47,978 --> 00:34:50,319
Officers order everyone out of the car,

662
00:34:50,319 --> 00:34:54,681
guns drawn. They put children face down on
the pavement of a parking lot

663
00:34:54,681 --> 00:34:56,501
on a summer afternoon and handcuff them.

664
00:34:56,501 --> 00:34:59,802
A six year old, a twelve year old.

665
00:34:59,802 --> 00:35:02,413
There's video. You can hear them
screaming.

666
00:35:03,163 --> 00:35:05,336
The city did actually reach a settlement
though.

667
00:35:06,497 --> 00:35:10,526
Right. The city settled for around one
point nine million dollars years later

668
00:35:10,526 --> 00:35:14,555
in twenty twenty four. And I want to be
very clear about the mechanism because

669
00:35:14,555 --> 00:35:16,681
the algorithm made a mistake is not quite
it.

670
00:35:17,223 --> 00:35:18,223
Go for it.

671
00:35:18,903 --> 00:35:20,525
The algorithm produced a claim,

672
00:35:20,525 --> 00:35:22,847
and the claim arrived pre credentialed.

673
00:35:22,847 --> 00:35:25,930
When a plate reader tells an officer
stolen vehicle,

674
00:35:25,930 --> 00:35:28,072
it does not arrive as a hypothesis.

675
00:35:28,072 --> 00:35:31,275
It arrives as a fact with a machine's
authority behind it,

676
00:35:31,275 --> 00:35:35,501
and the officer's job becomes executing on
a fact rather than investigating

677
00:35:35,501 --> 00:35:38,903
a hypothesis. That's what put the six year
old in handcuffs,

678
00:35:38,903 --> 00:35:42,987
not a typo, a typo plus institutional
deference to a typo.

679
00:35:44,464 --> 00:35:49,607
This is I hear this a lot when people talk
about policing and the police in general.

680
00:35:49,607 --> 00:35:51,978
They'll say something along the lines of
look,

681
00:35:51,978 --> 00:35:55,411
the job of the police is just to execute
the law.

682
00:35:55,411 --> 00:35:58,683
It's just to enforce the law.

683
00:35:58,683 --> 00:36:01,355
And I've heard that so many, so many times
as just that.

684
00:36:01,355 --> 00:36:03,456
It's their job to enforce the law.

685
00:36:03,456 --> 00:36:07,749
I agree. But in a normal scenario,

686
00:36:07,749 --> 00:36:12,682
their job of enforcing the law comes with
a mandate from a human being.

687
00:36:13,432 --> 00:36:20,148
And that's why the data is just a lead is
the softest lie in this whole industry.

688
00:36:21,524 --> 00:36:24,631
Right. In this case it's a lead with a gun
behind it because that lead's gonna

689
00:36:24,631 --> 00:36:26,906
direct a police officer how to approach
the situation.

690
00:36:27,656 --> 00:36:30,408
And for, you know, I guess their
stockholders' wallets,

691
00:36:30,408 --> 00:36:35,672
it scales really well. That's the thing
about error rates in a network

692
00:36:35,672 --> 00:36:37,574
of eighty three thousand cameras.

693
00:36:37,574 --> 00:36:41,297
A misread rate that sounds negligible,

694
00:36:41,297 --> 00:36:45,761
let's call it, I don't know, fractions of
a percent across hundreds

695
00:36:45,761 --> 00:36:50,225
of millions of license plate reads is an
enormous,

696
00:36:50,225 --> 00:36:54,028
absolute number of wrong answers every
year.

697
00:36:54,028 --> 00:36:56,620
And each answer that

698
00:36:56,864 --> 00:37:01,853
That wrong answer is a stop and some
percentages of of those stops are

699
00:37:01,853 --> 00:37:03,516
the worst day of someone's life.

700
00:37:04,266 --> 00:37:07,635
And the people who get those worst days
are not randomly distributed.

701
00:37:08,048 --> 00:37:09,048
They are not.

702
00:37:09,804 --> 00:37:13,034
Okay, second case. And this one's the
legal spine of the whole thing.

703
00:37:13,034 --> 00:37:15,743
Stephanie Scholl and Frank Bednars.

704
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,075
Both live in Cook County and drive there.

705
00:37:19,787 --> 00:37:23,868
Two Cook County drivers, two people who
drive on the Chicago Area Expressways,

706
00:37:23,868 --> 00:37:26,789
remember those, which is to say two people
who commute.

707
00:37:26,789 --> 00:37:31,170
And in 2024, the Liberty Justice Center
files suit on their behalf against

708
00:37:31,170 --> 00:37:34,831
the Illinois State Police. Shoal versus
International or sorry,

709
00:37:34,831 --> 00:37:40,422
Illinois State Police. case number 124 CV
O four four three five,

710
00:37:40,422 --> 00:37:41,773
Northern District of Illinois.

711
00:37:41,773 --> 00:37:46,234
Defendants include State Police Director
Brendan Kelly and the case names Governor

712
00:37:46,234 --> 00:37:47,844
Pritzker and Attorney General.

713
00:37:48,048 --> 00:37:49,048
Quamiro.

714
00:37:49,402 --> 00:37:51,248
And the claim is Fourth Amendment.

715
00:37:51,248 --> 00:37:52,462
We we're protected by

716
00:37:52,066 --> 00:37:53,066
Right.

717
00:37:52,462 --> 00:37:53,462
the Fourth Amendment.

718
00:37:53,738 --> 00:37:56,802
From unreasonable searches. So the claim
is that a network

719
00:37:56,802 --> 00:38:00,446
of expressway plate readers that records
every driver indefinitely,

720
00:38:00,446 --> 00:38:03,050
without a warrant, without suspicion,

721
00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:06,354
is a search. This may sound like a radical
conclusion,

722
00:38:06,354 --> 00:38:08,316
but it's not a search of shoal,

723
00:38:08,316 --> 00:38:10,589
a search of everyone continuously,

724
00:38:10,589 --> 00:38:11,589
including Shoal.

725
00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:16,348
And I want to flag who's bringing this
because it matters politically.

726
00:38:17,710 --> 00:38:21,832
The Liberty Justice Center is a
libertarian leaning public interest firm.

727
00:38:21,832 --> 00:38:24,460
This is not a progressive civil liberties
campaign.

728
00:38:25,404 --> 00:38:27,615
It is not. This is not the ACLU.

729
00:38:27,615 --> 00:38:31,698
And in Norfolk, it was the Institute for
Justice.

730
00:38:31,698 --> 00:38:38,002
And what that tells you is that mass plate
surveillance is one of maybe four issues

731
00:38:38,002 --> 00:38:42,345
left in America where the coalition
against it is genuinely

732
00:38:42,505 --> 00:38:48,438
and structurally bipartisan. Not in like a
both sides have concerns op

733
00:38:48,438 --> 00:38:50,760
ed kind of way. In the same brief

734
00:38:51,610 --> 00:38:56,205
in the the like it gets signed by the same
people who agree on nothing else kind

735
00:38:56,205 --> 00:38:57,205
of a way.

736
00:38:57,825 --> 00:39:02,041
Because being tracked by default offends
two different American instincts at once.

737
00:39:02,041 --> 00:39:05,766
It offends the civil rights instinct about
people about who gets policed,

738
00:39:05,766 --> 00:39:09,000
and it offends the government does not get
to know where I am instinct.

739
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:12,502
It I mean it offends me on a couple of
more levels,

740
00:39:12,502 --> 00:39:16,936
but I but I will tell you that this is
this is the one thing I feel like
everybody

741
00:39:16,936 --> 00:39:19,548
can probably agree on right now right now,

742
00:39:19,548 --> 00:39:20,548
if anything.

743
00:39:19,699 --> 00:39:20,699
Exactly.

744
00:39:20,839 --> 00:39:23,190
Yeah. in March twenty twenty five,

745
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:28,695
Judge Martha Packold issued an opinion
that l lets the core standing theories

746
00:39:28,695 --> 00:39:30,506
survive dismissal.

747
00:39:31,751 --> 00:39:33,648
Which is a bigger deal than it sounds at
first.

748
00:39:35,010 --> 00:39:37,992
It's a much bigger deal than it sounds
because the the standing question,

749
00:39:37,992 --> 00:39:41,775
how are you injured if you don't know that
anyone looked you up?

750
00:39:41,775 --> 00:39:45,879
is the trapdoor that these cases usually
fall through.

751
00:39:45,879 --> 00:39:50,323
The state's argument in a hundred
surveillance cases has been look,

752
00:39:50,323 --> 00:39:54,086
you can't prove you were harmed because
the harm is secret,

753
00:39:54,086 --> 00:39:55,927
and because the harm is secret,

754
00:39:55,927 --> 00:39:59,360
you can't sue to find out. It's like this
perfect loop.

755
00:40:00,110 --> 00:40:01,110
And it survived.

756
00:40:01,745 --> 00:40:06,154
It survived. So there is a live federal
case in Illinois asking whether

757
00:40:06,154 --> 00:40:11,035
the thing Knotts bookmarked in nineteen
eighty three has actually finally arrived.

758
00:40:12,335 --> 00:40:14,842
So are we at the event and there will be
time enough then?

759
00:40:15,623 --> 00:40:17,877
Yeah, th th this is this is the then.

760
00:40:17,877 --> 00:40:19,310
This is the now that

761
00:40:18,446 --> 00:40:19,446
Then is now

762
00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:21,745
the socks the Scotus never thought would
come.

763
00:40:21,745 --> 00:40:23,399
We're at then.

764
00:40:22,658 --> 00:40:23,658
Then is now.

765
00:40:23,439 --> 00:40:26,534
Let now let's go back now, let's go back
to the man who did this with

766
00:40:26,534 --> 00:40:30,471
the laptop because Jason Hunyar's method
is the most instructive thing

767
00:40:30,471 --> 00:40:32,294
in this episode, and I want to walk
through it properly.

768
00:40:32,695 --> 00:40:33,695
Do it.

769
00:40:34,366 --> 00:40:36,949
He's in Dunwoody, Georgia, suburb of
Atlanta,

770
00:40:36,949 --> 00:40:38,981
which side note is where Flock is
headquartered,

771
00:40:38,981 --> 00:40:40,353
and I don't think that's coincidence.

772
00:40:40,353 --> 00:40:44,298
I think he's watching his own backyard and
it took it taught him what to ask for.

773
00:40:45,016 --> 00:40:46,439
he didn't ask for just a policy.

774
00:40:47,024 --> 00:40:48,024
Right, this is the whole thing.

775
00:40:47,974 --> 00:40:50,317
He doesn't ask what is your license plate
reader policy?

776
00:40:50,317 --> 00:40:54,001
Because every agency has a policy and
every policy says the right words.

777
00:40:54,001 --> 00:40:56,724
He asks for the operational artifact,

778
00:40:56,724 --> 00:41:01,129
the data sharing report, the thing the
system itself generates that lists

779
00:41:01,129 --> 00:41:02,129
who has access.

780
00:41:02,805 --> 00:41:05,979
Basically he wanted the the the system to
confess on itself.

781
00:41:07,024 --> 00:41:08,816
Right. He wants and he wants the
confession,

782
00:41:08,816 --> 00:41:10,157
the transcript of the confession,

783
00:41:10,157 --> 00:41:14,962
not the policy behind it. And Schomberg
sends it because it's a public record

784
00:41:15,002 --> 00:41:18,375
and Illinois has a records act and it
comes back with more than four hundred

785
00:41:18,375 --> 00:41:22,028
agencies on it. Four hundred agencies.

786
00:41:22,028 --> 00:41:23,980
Law enforcement and government,

787
00:41:23,980 --> 00:41:26,092
universities, railroad police,

788
00:41:26,092 --> 00:41:27,794
the state attorney general's office.

789
00:41:29,247 --> 00:41:33,903
I wanna pull on the railroad because ~
that's that's one that one's like

790
00:41:33,903 --> 00:41:35,015
the the tell of it all.

791
00:41:36,242 --> 00:41:37,242
Pull on it.

792
00:41:37,662 --> 00:41:40,343
So the railroad police in the United
States,

793
00:41:40,343 --> 00:41:42,244
if you've not heard of them, they're very
real.

794
00:41:42,244 --> 00:41:46,287
They're very real, strange legal
creatures.

795
00:41:46,287 --> 00:41:51,369
~ they they're private employees of a
private corporation

796
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:56,251
who hold sworn police powers, often across
multiple states,

797
00:41:56,251 --> 00:41:57,892
because that's what railroads do,

798
00:41:57,892 --> 00:42:04,006
under very old statutes that date to the
era when railroads basically were

799
00:42:04,006 --> 00:42:05,006
the government.

800
00:42:05,290 --> 00:42:06,878
in large parts of the country.

801
00:42:08,114 --> 00:42:09,616
And guess who's on the access list?

802
00:42:10,412 --> 00:42:14,424
They are on the access list, which means a
private company's police force,

803
00:42:14,424 --> 00:42:19,857
a private police force, can search where a
resident's car has been.

804
00:42:19,857 --> 00:42:24,920
And I would bet a considerable amount of
money that not one person

805
00:42:25,172 --> 00:42:31,474
in Schaumburg at any public meeting ever
has said the words and also the railroad.

806
00:42:32,947 --> 00:42:36,850
The the ghost of Cornelius Vanderbilt
wasn't back there saying and the railroads

807
00:42:37,374 --> 00:42:40,124
Exactly. The thing is, nobody

808
00:42:39,723 --> 00:42:40,723
here's

809
00:42:40,124 --> 00:42:41,630
voted on any of that.

810
00:42:42,461 --> 00:42:44,653
Right, and here's what I keep coming back
to about Hunyar.

811
00:42:44,653 --> 00:42:47,396
He has no jurisdiction. That's the point.

812
00:42:47,396 --> 00:42:51,060
He's a private citizen in Georgia who
obtained the surveillance sharing records

813
00:42:51,060 --> 00:42:55,165
of a village in Illinois using nothing but
the state's own transparency

814
00:42:55,165 --> 00:42:57,007
law and the willingness to send an email.

815
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,417
So that borderlessness cuts both ways.

816
00:43:01,437 --> 00:43:05,031
It does. And that's the single most usable
fact in this episode.

817
00:43:05,031 --> 00:43:07,374
They built a network with no borders.

818
00:43:07,374 --> 00:43:11,098
Fine. Records laws have no borders either
in most states.

819
00:43:11,098 --> 00:43:12,810
You do not have to be a resident.

820
00:43:12,810 --> 00:43:14,121
You do not have to have standing.

821
00:43:14,121 --> 00:43:15,463
You do not have to explain why.

822
00:43:16,438 --> 00:43:21,415
And his stated position per the reporting
is that these records belong

823
00:43:21,415 --> 00:43:22,415
to the public.

824
00:43:23,123 --> 00:43:25,826
They belong to the public and he keeps
soliciting audit logs,

825
00:43:25,826 --> 00:43:27,407
which is the escalation, right?

826
00:43:27,407 --> 00:43:29,569
The sharing report tells you who can look,

827
00:43:29,569 --> 00:43:31,260
the audit log tells you who did.

828
00:43:32,256 --> 00:43:34,474
And nobody wants to hand over the audit
log.

829
00:43:35,407 --> 00:43:37,932
Nobody wants to hand over the audit log
because the audit log is where

830
00:43:37,932 --> 00:43:40,968
the reason field lives. And the reason
field is where you find

831
00:43:40,968 --> 00:43:43,593
out that somebody searched a plate three
hundred times and typed

832
00:43:43,593 --> 00:43:45,337
the word investigation every time.

833
00:43:46,442 --> 00:43:49,886
And that's the pattern I want to name
across all three of these things.

834
00:43:49,886 --> 00:43:54,531
Gilliam, Shoal, and Bednar's Hunyar,

835
00:43:54,531 --> 00:43:59,146
is that in every single case the
accountability came from outside

836
00:43:59,146 --> 00:44:03,581
the system after the fact at a private
citizen's expense.

837
00:44:04,991 --> 00:44:07,186
family had to be traumatized and then
bring a lawsuit.

838
00:44:08,411 --> 00:44:10,360
Two commuters had to find a law firm.

839
00:44:11,541 --> 00:44:13,972
A guy in Georgia had to file paperwork on
his own time.

840
00:44:14,907 --> 00:44:17,719
There is no case here where the system
caught itself.

841
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,151
Not one. And I'm going to be clear about
this.

842
00:44:20,151 --> 00:44:21,562
That's not a staffing problem.

843
00:44:21,562 --> 00:44:23,743
It doesn't mean that there's not enough
people doing the job.

844
00:44:23,743 --> 00:44:28,026
There's no oversight body in America that
is resourced

845
00:44:28,026 --> 00:44:33,460
to audit 83,000 cameras and 400 agencies

846
00:44:33,460 --> 00:44:39,295
per node in real time. That body does not
exist and it's not going to be created.

847
00:44:40,045 --> 00:44:43,301
Which means the oversight we're promised
is a fiction.

848
00:44:43,301 --> 00:44:46,857
And the oversight we actually get is
hobbyists and litigation.

849
00:44:47,607 --> 00:44:49,148
So let me do the thing we said we'd do.

850
00:44:49,148 --> 00:44:52,911
Not surveillance is creepy, the enumerated
case,

851
00:44:52,911 --> 00:44:54,752
why this is wrong specifically,

852
00:44:54,752 --> 00:44:57,414
and why the answer is elimination and not
reform.

853
00:44:57,414 --> 00:44:59,005
I've got six things.

854
00:44:59,666 --> 00:45:00,666
Let's hear.

855
00:45:01,456 --> 00:45:05,388
One, it inverts the warrant. The entire
architecture of the Fourth Amendment

856
00:45:05,388 --> 00:45:07,729
is that you establish cause and then you
search,

857
00:45:07,729 --> 00:45:10,490
because you just don't get to go around
randomly searching people.

858
00:45:10,490 --> 00:45:13,471
But a plate reader network searches
everyone first,

859
00:45:13,471 --> 00:45:16,273
permanently, and then waits around for a
reason.

860
00:45:16,273 --> 00:45:20,204
There's no version of reasonable suspicion
that operates on a database that

861
00:45:20,204 --> 00:45:22,015
was built before any suspicion existed.

862
00:45:22,015 --> 00:45:26,257
You cannot bolt cause onto a system whose
whole function is to precede the cause.

863
00:45:27,236 --> 00:45:28,236
Number two.

864
00:45:28,422 --> 00:45:31,824
two, it's a time machine, and consent
can't be retroactive.

865
00:45:31,824 --> 00:45:35,106
Even if every voter in Schomburg voted yes
in twenty nineteen,

866
00:45:35,106 --> 00:45:39,128
which they didn't, that vote could not
authorize a twenty twenty six search

867
00:45:39,128 --> 00:45:43,680
of a twenty nineteen movement by a twenty
twenty six agency operating under twenty

868
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,592
twenty six politics. The abortion case
proves this precisely.

869
00:45:47,592 --> 00:45:50,564
In twenty nineteen no one in Illinois was
voting on whether Texas should

870
00:45:50,564 --> 00:45:52,435
be able to find someone who ended a
pregnancy,

871
00:45:52,435 --> 00:45:55,277
because in twenty nineteen that was not
the legal landscape.

872
00:45:55,277 --> 00:45:57,698
The law changed, the data didn't.

873
00:45:58,330 --> 00:46:00,483
Data just sat there and became newly
dangerous.

874
00:46:01,460 --> 00:46:04,614
The data sat there and then became
dangerous.

875
00:46:04,614 --> 00:46:05,850
That's the line here, folks.

876
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,401
So number three, it's not a camera.

877
00:46:08,401 --> 00:46:12,002
It's a pattern engine. And this is where I
think the public conversation

878
00:46:12,002 --> 00:46:13,363
is a decade behind the product.

879
00:46:13,363 --> 00:46:17,125
Nobody in this industry is selling did
this plate pass this pole?

880
00:46:17,125 --> 00:46:20,326
They're selling vehicle characteristics
when the plate is unreadable.

881
00:46:20,326 --> 00:46:22,467
They're selling convoy analysis,

882
00:46:22,467 --> 00:46:25,919
which cars travel together. They're
selling visitation patterns,

883
00:46:25,919 --> 00:46:28,530
which car appeared at this location eleven
times in a month.

884
00:46:28,530 --> 00:46:32,402
They're selling show me every vehicle that
was near both of these places.

885
00:46:33,378 --> 00:46:35,154
Which is association mapping.

886
00:46:36,325 --> 00:46:37,636
Which is what they do for terrorists,

887
00:46:37,636 --> 00:46:39,126
right? It's association mapping,

888
00:46:39,126 --> 00:46:40,957
and if you ran it on a union drive,

889
00:46:40,957 --> 00:46:43,359
it would tell you exactly who attended the
meeting.

890
00:46:43,359 --> 00:46:46,700
every car in the lot behind the hall on a
Thursday night.

891
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:49,362
And I want to say clearly, I'm describing
a capability,

892
00:46:49,362 --> 00:46:51,183
not accusing a specific department.

893
00:46:51,183 --> 00:46:53,384
But the capability is the product.

894
00:46:53,384 --> 00:46:56,415
It's what you're buying. And this show is
about labor,

895
00:46:56,415 --> 00:46:59,967
so let's be direct. The ability to
enumerate everyone who showed up somewhere

896
00:46:59,967 --> 00:47:02,848
is the oldest anti organizing tool in
American history.

897
00:47:02,848 --> 00:47:05,712
And we just automated it and put it on a
poll outside of the warehouse.

898
00:47:06,847 --> 00:47:07,847
What about number four?

899
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,892
four. Consent is laundered through
geography.

900
00:47:11,892 --> 00:47:16,595
Your town votes, your town's vote cannot
bind agency number three hundred eleven,

901
00:47:16,595 --> 00:47:20,398
so the Democratic Act, and that's the
thing that's supposed to make this
legitimate,

902
00:47:20,398 --> 00:47:23,520
has a scope of one node in a mesh of
thousands.

903
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,862
Meaning you're authorizing your town's
node,

904
00:47:25,862 --> 00:47:27,944
but you can't affect what the other nodes
are doing.

905
00:47:27,944 --> 00:47:30,445
It's not the democratic control is weak
here,

906
00:47:30,445 --> 00:47:34,148
it's that democratic control is
categorically the wrong shape for the
object.

907
00:47:34,148 --> 00:47:36,800
You're trying to govern a network with a
municipality.

908
00:47:37,550 --> 00:47:38,550
Number five.

909
00:47:38,757 --> 00:47:41,430
Five. Error is not a bug you can patch
out,

910
00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:44,853
because the error rate multipliers against
multiplies against volume,

911
00:47:44,853 --> 00:47:46,956
and the consequences of error are
physical.

912
00:47:46,956 --> 00:47:51,841
Brittany Gilliam's nieces. This is not a
story about a bad database entry.

913
00:47:51,841 --> 00:47:55,545
That's what a fractional error rate looks
like when you cash it out at gunpoint,

914
00:47:55,545 --> 00:47:57,387
hundreds of times a year nationally.

915
00:47:58,450 --> 00:47:59,450
And six?

916
00:48:00,313 --> 00:48:03,005
six, and this is the one that closes the
door on reform.

917
00:48:03,005 --> 00:48:07,387
The strongest guardrail law in the country
was defeated by the vendor's

918
00:48:07,387 --> 00:48:10,148
own internal disorganization, not by
malice.

919
00:48:10,148 --> 00:48:12,830
Illinois wrote a great statute in twenty
twenty three,

920
00:48:12,830 --> 00:48:16,692
and in twenty twenty five we learned that
the CBP was inside Illinois cameras

921
00:48:17,052 --> 00:48:20,174
through a pilot the vendor's leadership
says it didn't even know about.

922
00:48:21,111 --> 00:48:24,947
You can't regulate a party that doesn't
know what it's doing.

923
00:48:25,936 --> 00:48:29,127
Right. You can't regulate an entity that
can't inventory itself,

924
00:48:29,127 --> 00:48:32,478
that can't audit itself. That's not a
compliance fe failure you fix with

925
00:48:32,478 --> 00:48:35,478
a stricter clause, right? It that's not
the kind of adjustment you can make.

926
00:48:35,478 --> 00:48:39,399
There is no clause that makes an
organization comprehensible to itself.

927
00:48:39,399 --> 00:48:42,120
And every regulatory scheme we propose,

928
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,301
audits, logs, attestations, sign offs,

929
00:48:45,301 --> 00:48:48,522
all of it assumes a counterparty capable
of knowing and reporting

930
00:48:48,522 --> 00:48:50,082
the truth about its own systems.

931
00:48:50,082 --> 00:48:53,143
That assumption has now been tested in
Illinois.

932
00:48:53,143 --> 00:48:54,143
Hard

933
00:48:54,447 --> 00:48:57,585
By a motivated statewide official was
subpoena adjacent power,

934
00:48:57,585 --> 00:48:58,585
and it failed.

935
00:48:59,423 --> 00:49:00,957
I want to add the seventh actually,

936
00:49:00,957 --> 00:49:04,246
which is the one that I can't seem to let
go of.

937
00:49:04,246 --> 00:49:06,813
It's about what the audits actually do.

938
00:49:07,717 --> 00:49:08,717
By all means.

939
00:49:09,309 --> 00:49:12,662
An audit is a is a legitimation ritual,

940
00:49:12,662 --> 00:49:17,354
okay? And I don't mean that that Gianulius
did something wrong.

941
00:49:17,354 --> 00:49:22,659
I think I think his office is the most
aggressive ALPR oversight work

942
00:49:22,659 --> 00:49:27,943
in the country, genuinely. And and
Evanston and Oak Park left Flox Network

943
00:49:27,943 --> 00:49:29,805
in contract because of that. That's real.

944
00:49:29,805 --> 00:49:35,239
But look at the structural f function of
the audit in the Cook County story.

945
00:49:35,989 --> 00:49:37,559
You ought to give them the vocabulary,

946
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:38,559
right?

947
00:49:38,510 --> 00:49:41,601
Right, because once there's an audit
regime,

948
00:49:41,601 --> 00:49:47,563
the answer to should we have this becomes
we should have this correctly.

949
00:49:47,563 --> 00:49:51,645
The question shifts from existence to
compliance.

950
00:49:51,645 --> 00:49:53,586
And compliance is a thing you can buy.

951
00:49:53,586 --> 00:49:56,527
It's a it's a line item. It's a it's a
training module,

952
00:49:56,527 --> 00:50:00,098
it's a checkbox in the dashboard labeled
Illinois mode.

953
00:50:00,848 --> 00:50:02,967
And the checkbox becomes the argument for
expansion.

954
00:50:03,976 --> 00:50:07,320
The checkbox always becomes the argument
for expansion.

955
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,054
We've addressed the concerns, so now let's
go from twenty five cameras

956
00:50:11,054 --> 00:50:12,426
to one hundred and twenty five.

957
00:50:12,426 --> 00:50:18,523
That's not like hypothetical. That
happened one day after they admitted that
they

958
00:50:18,523 --> 00:50:19,885
were operating without a contract.

959
00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:25,000
So here's the through line, and it lands
differently now than it did an hour ago.

960
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,490
A hyperlocal pitch becomes a national
dragnet.

961
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:31,951
I'll say it fully for you. A property
crime in Atlanta,

962
00:50:31,951 --> 00:50:34,692
a murdered postal worker on I fifty seven,

963
00:50:34,692 --> 00:50:37,553
packages stolen off a porch in a
subdivision.

964
00:50:37,553 --> 00:50:41,935
Every origin story in this industry is a
real harm suffered by a real person,

965
00:50:41,935 --> 00:50:44,536
and every one of them is unanswerable in
this moment.

966
00:50:44,536 --> 00:50:48,247
You cannot stand up at a village board
meeting and argue against Tamara Clayton's

967
00:50:48,247 --> 00:50:49,868
family, and you shouldn't want to.

968
00:50:50,759 --> 00:50:51,994
But here's how the thing gets built.

969
00:50:53,146 --> 00:50:54,266
That's exactly how it gets built.

970
00:50:54,266 --> 00:50:58,310
And it's why it can't be argued down at
the local level on local terms.

971
00:50:58,310 --> 00:51:02,252
Because at the local level, the pitch is
always about the harm you can name.

972
00:51:02,252 --> 00:51:05,205
It's your neighbor, it's your it's your
family member,

973
00:51:05,205 --> 00:51:08,077
right? And the cost is always something
you can't see yet.

974
00:51:08,077 --> 00:51:10,819
It's that future surveillance when the law
changes.

975
00:51:10,819 --> 00:51:13,300
When they make it a crime to be a part of
a union.

976
00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:17,183
Nobody in Schomburg was choosing between
no cameras and railroad police

977
00:51:17,183 --> 00:51:20,856
can search your movements. They were
choosing between cameras and car break in.

978
00:51:21,678 --> 00:51:23,387
The four hundred agencies weren't on the
ballot,

979
00:51:23,387 --> 00:51:24,534
they weren't even on the agenda.

980
00:51:25,297 --> 00:51:29,693
And nobody voted on that. And that phrase
I've said it like four times today.

981
00:51:29,693 --> 00:51:33,248
I I wanna be precise about what I mean by
it now,

982
00:51:33,248 --> 00:51:36,403
because it's not just a complaint about
process.

983
00:51:37,658 --> 00:51:38,753
Tell us what you mean, Joshua.

984
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:45,093
I mean that the consent doesn't exist and
it cannot be manufactured after the fact.

985
00:51:45,093 --> 00:51:51,277
There is no procedure available to us that
would retroactively legitimate four

986
00:51:51,777 --> 00:51:54,919
hundred agencies searching a suburb.

987
00:51:54,919 --> 00:52:00,042
You can't hold a hearing about it in 2026
and fix 2019.

988
00:52:00,042 --> 00:52:03,224
The record is made. The searches have
already happened.

989
00:52:03,224 --> 00:52:05,205
The Texas Sheriff has already looked.

990
00:52:06,454 --> 00:52:08,243
Which is why the only frame is
elimination.

991
00:52:09,721 --> 00:52:13,563
Elimination not because reform is
insufficiently ambitious,

992
00:52:13,563 --> 00:52:16,785
because reform applied to this produces a
permanent,

993
00:52:16,785 --> 00:52:21,188
better documented, more expensive version
of the same problem,

994
00:52:21,188 --> 00:52:23,499
and then calls the documentation a
victory.

995
00:52:24,842 --> 00:52:27,977
And the honest thing, the thing I'd say to
a police chief or a sheriff,

996
00:52:27,977 --> 00:52:30,500
is that yes, you will lose some cases.

997
00:52:30,500 --> 00:52:34,086
That's true. Plate readers do solve
crimes.

998
00:52:34,086 --> 00:52:36,249
We're not pretending otherwise.

999
00:52:36,249 --> 00:52:39,094
And anybody who tells you that a tool that
logs every car everywhere

1000
00:52:39,094 --> 00:52:40,636
and never catches anyone is lying to you.

1001
00:52:42,001 --> 00:52:44,092
Question was never whether it works.

1002
00:52:44,984 --> 00:52:47,245
Exactly. Torture works sometimes.

1003
00:52:47,245 --> 00:52:49,195
General warrants worked great,

1004
00:52:49,195 --> 00:52:51,246
that's why the British Crown loved them.

1005
00:52:51,246 --> 00:52:55,777
The entire premise of a constitutional
limit is that there are efficient things
that

1006
00:52:55,777 --> 00:52:58,028
we don't get to do. And a mass,

1007
00:52:58,028 --> 00:53:00,869
permanent, retroactive, vendor owned,

1008
00:53:00,869 --> 00:53:04,170
four hundred party searchable record of
where every American drives

1009
00:53:04,570 --> 00:53:07,390
is the most efficient general warrant ever
constructed.

1010
00:53:07,390 --> 00:53:11,822
And it was installed by public s work
public works crews with no vote

1011
00:53:11,822 --> 00:53:12,822
at any level of government.

1012
00:53:14,049 --> 00:53:18,082
So you're probably asking what you should
be watching more closely.

1013
00:53:19,222 --> 00:53:21,130
Not the policy. It's never the policy.

1014
00:53:21,622 --> 00:53:26,074
It's never the policy. Watch the contract
and watch the log.

1015
00:53:26,074 --> 00:53:30,175
Because here's the the fact from this
story that proves it.

1016
00:53:30,175 --> 00:53:36,318
Schaumburg almost certainly has a
perfectly reasonable ALPR policy.

1017
00:53:36,318 --> 00:53:39,699
I bet it says the data is retained for a
limited period,

1018
00:53:39,699 --> 00:53:43,760
used for legitimate law enforcement
purposes and shared only with authorized

1019
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:50,713
agencies. And all of that can be true at
the same time as four hundred agencies.

1020
00:53:51,019 --> 00:53:53,695
A railroad and for some reason a
university.

1021
00:53:54,445 --> 00:53:57,769
Course that's also overlooking the fact
that the argument has been made that

1022
00:53:57,769 --> 00:54:00,463
the data is public data now and belongs to
the public.

1023
00:54:00,463 --> 00:54:04,538
So it's not really true that they can
share it only with authorized agencies.

1024
00:54:04,538 --> 00:54:08,514
But because authorized is defined by the
vendor's dashboard and not by you,

1025
00:54:08,514 --> 00:54:10,025
it wouldn't matter anyway, right?

1026
00:54:10,587 --> 00:54:15,193
Yeah. The the artifact that you want is
the data sharing report and the audit log.

1027
00:54:15,193 --> 00:54:17,676
The report tells you who can look at it.

1028
00:54:17,676 --> 00:54:20,560
The log tells you who did, when,

1029
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,043
and what they typed in the reason field.

1030
00:54:23,793 --> 00:54:26,094
And now the most absurd single thing in
the story,

1031
00:54:26,094 --> 00:54:27,813
which we've been holding in all episodes

1032
00:54:28,607 --> 00:54:29,609
Go ahead, you can have it.

1033
00:54:30,359 --> 00:54:33,997
Remember a company valued at seven and a
half billion dollars.

1034
00:54:33,997 --> 00:54:35,821
How much is that again, Joshua?

1035
00:54:36,495 --> 00:54:37,495
Ba ba billion.

1036
00:54:38,563 --> 00:54:42,861
whose only product is a system for
controlling who can see whose location
data,

1037
00:54:42,861 --> 00:54:47,049
did not know that the United States
customs and border protection

1038
00:54:47,631 --> 00:54:48,713
was inside the company.

1039
00:54:49,447 --> 00:54:52,308
they found out from a state official in
Springfield running an audit

1040
00:54:52,729 --> 00:54:54,649
in a state where the thing was already
illegal,

1041
00:54:54,649 --> 00:54:58,671
and through that same lens, the lens where
you stop reading policies

1042
00:54:58,671 --> 00:55:00,231
and start reading operational records,

1043
00:55:00,231 --> 00:55:02,172
it's not an embarrassing anecdote,

1044
00:55:02,172 --> 00:55:03,913
it's the whole design confessing.

1045
00:55:03,913 --> 00:55:07,934
The network is too big for its owner to
know and it's nowhere near done growing.

1046
00:55:09,051 --> 00:55:10,854
So three things you can actually do,

1047
00:55:10,854 --> 00:55:15,033
and these are not contact or
representative because we've stopped doing
that now.

1048
00:55:15,783 --> 00:55:19,565
One, be Jason Hunyar for somewhere that
isn't your your hometown.

1049
00:55:19,565 --> 00:55:22,146
He's in Georgia and he pulled Illinois
records.

1050
00:55:22,146 --> 00:55:24,987
Most state records laws do not require you
to be a resident,

1051
00:55:24,987 --> 00:55:28,568
do not require standing, and do not
require you to explain why you want it.

1052
00:55:28,568 --> 00:55:31,289
Pick a jurisdiction, any jurisdiction,

1053
00:55:31,289 --> 00:55:35,371
one you've never been to, and request the
ALPR data sharing report

1054
00:55:35,371 --> 00:55:37,732
and the audit logs. Not the policy,

1055
00:55:37,732 --> 00:55:42,074
the report and the logs. Then publish this
whole thing raw.

1056
00:55:42,074 --> 00:55:44,775
The network is borderless, so it's so is
the Record Act.

1057
00:55:45,437 --> 00:55:46,685
Use their geometry against them.

1058
00:55:47,931 --> 00:55:51,382
Two, go where the friction is the lowest,

1059
00:55:51,382 --> 00:55:54,283
which is not City Hall. It's the HOA,

1060
00:55:54,283 --> 00:55:59,464
it's the university campus. Flock's
original customers were just HOAs.

1061
00:55:59,464 --> 00:56:04,736
And an HOA board can cancel a camera
contract in one meeting with no public
hearing,

1062
00:56:04,736 --> 00:56:07,927
no procurement code, and no state law in
the way.

1063
00:56:07,927 --> 00:56:10,937
That's a seat somebody's going to fill
this year.

1064
00:56:10,937 --> 00:56:14,218
Fill it. And the universities were on
Schomberg's list.

1065
00:56:14,218 --> 00:56:16,469
A university police subscription can be
kept.

1066
00:56:16,558 --> 00:56:19,895
Killed by one provost, one Board of
Trustees vote,

1067
00:56:19,895 --> 00:56:24,043
one faculty Senate resolution with a
student newspaper behind it.

1068
00:56:24,043 --> 00:56:25,667
Nobody's guarding those doors.

1069
00:56:27,136 --> 00:56:29,007
Three, change what you demand.

1070
00:56:29,007 --> 00:56:31,668
Stop asking for a better policy because
you'll get one,

1071
00:56:31,668 --> 00:56:34,369
and it'll be beautiful and it will not
matter.

1072
00:56:34,369 --> 00:56:36,650
Ask for two documents instead,

1073
00:56:36,650 --> 00:56:39,412
a termination date and a deletion
certificate.

1074
00:56:39,412 --> 00:56:44,364
A signed attestation from the vendor that
historical data associated with your

1075
00:56:44,364 --> 00:56:45,795
jurisdiction has been destroyed,

1076
00:56:45,795 --> 00:56:47,856
with the date and the record count.

1077
00:56:47,856 --> 00:56:50,437
Watch what happens to the room when you
ask for the record count.

1078
00:56:51,309 --> 00:56:52,553
Because they can't produce it.

1079
00:56:53,577 --> 00:56:57,343
They usually cannot produce it and that's
your answer about who actually owns

1080
00:56:57,343 --> 00:56:58,343
the record of where you've been.

1081
00:56:58,985 --> 00:57:01,607
Alright guys, that's it. That's our flock
episode.

1082
00:57:01,607 --> 00:57:03,298
A couple of you've been asking for it,

1083
00:57:03,298 --> 00:57:06,030
so there you go. this is the overlap.

1084
00:57:06,030 --> 00:57:08,342
You've you've been listening to us so far
now.

1085
00:57:09,092 --> 00:57:12,366
One more thing before we go. You've
probably already been flocked.

1086
00:57:12,366 --> 00:57:15,389
Most of us have. But you don't have to
keep getting flocked.

1087
00:57:15,389 --> 00:57:19,654
So get the flock up, go to your flocking
records agencies,

1088
00:57:19,654 --> 00:57:23,469
police departments and and demand a
flocking change.

1089
00:57:24,219 --> 00:57:25,692
I th I think you're more than capable.

1090
00:57:25,692 --> 00:57:27,997
you want the groan of like hundreds of
voices,

1091
00:57:27,997 --> 00:57:28,997
right?

1092
00:57:28,988 --> 00:57:30,210
And all the ways not to do that.

1093
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:32,458
Well if that doesn't do it for you folks,

1094
00:57:32,458 --> 00:57:33,785
I don't know what will. So

1095
00:57:34,535 --> 00:57:35,535
That's the overlap.

1096
00:57:36,058 --> 00:57:38,118
Indeed. I